charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>I'm=20
just catching up on this after being away.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>I have=20
some sympathy with David's position; I too have heard a well-respected Bell=
=20
Historian saying he's given up sending updates to Dove, and we can all poin=
t out=20
some inconsistancies with weights that have been adjusted. However, some re=
cent=20
updates HAVE got through, for example, the Worcester tenor weight. I took t=
he=20
correct details for my own records, and asked Andrew Higson what details I=
=20
should pass on to people like Michael Wilby and David Bagley for their web=
=20
sites, and he very courageously said that the correct details should now be=
=20
published. I sent the details to David Bagley, stating the source, and it w=
as he=20
that passed it to Dove, where it was duly amended. Similarly, George Dawson=
=20
discovered some slightly exaggerated weights for some Oxfordshire rings, an=
d=20
sent them to Dove; these too have been amended.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>I do=20
feel quite strongly that there is no point in giving an exact weight unless=
the=20
bell in its current state has been accurately weighed. In the case of Taunt=
on St=20
James, there is no evidence that the bell has been out of the tower to be=20
weighed, and there will certainly not be an "as supplied" weight from the=20
founder! It is extremely unlikely that the bell would weigh as much as 19-3=
-14;=20
the figure of 17=BD cwt was calculated using scientific methods from the di=
ameter,=20
strike-note, position in the ring, and data from other bells by this founde=
r=20
which have been weighed. Part of the problem is that there are no sources s=
tated=20
for any of the weights that Ron Dove compiled, and it becomes difficult to =
sort=20
out the accurate from the spurious. Two examples to illustrate the problem =
from=20
Gloucestershire: firstly Tortworth. Given as 12-2-25 for the Jefferies &=
;=20
Price tenor, the bells had been rehung by Taylors in 1959, and the bells ha=
d no=20
canons. CJP checked the job books, and found that the work had been done in=
the=20
tower, and the bells not weighed. However, from the strike note and diamete=
r,=20
12=BD cwt was a realistic weight for the bell. I was going to send this up =
as an=20
amendment, but was fortunate to be at Taylors when George Dawson was doing =
some=20
work in the old job books. Taylors had recast two of the bells in 1871, and=
it=20
turned out that they had done a complete rehang, weighed all the bells, and=
the=20
back three were without canons. So the weight was correct after all! Nearby=
Iron=20
Acton, however, was a different story; the 13-0-23 turned out to be the=20
"as-cast" weight of the FIFTH; the J & P tenor here did not leave the t=
ower,=20
and probably weighs about 15=BD cwt.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>As to=20
approximate weights, I think care needs to be taken here too. I would be ve=
ry=20
much against the tenor of (say) an old five in darkest Somerset being quote=
d as=20
"21 cwt" if it has accurately been measured as 44=BD inches diameter in E. =
The=20
method I use to calculate approximate weights is weight in pounds =3D diame=
ter=20
raised to the fourth power x strike note (half nominal) in Hertz x thicknes=
s=20
constant. The thickness constant will vary depending on founder and positio=
n in=20
the ring, and can be calculated from known bells; the method relies on this=
and=20
accurate measurement of diameter.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>In the=20
case of Taunton St James, I think the onus is on the locals to provide a so=
urce=20
for the 19-3-14. My betting is that there isn't one. A similar case in poin=
t is=20
Shepton Mallet, 24-3-25 in E-flat in Dove. The tenor is by Thomas Rudhall, =
1773,=20
last rehung by L & J in 1910, and has been measured by Matthew Higby as=
51=BC=20
inches in diameter. My calculations indicate that the likely weight is 23=
=BD cwt,=20
and comparison with other Rudhall tenors that have been weighed indicate th=
at=20
the bell would need to be about an inch bigger to be 25 cwt. Both Chris Pic=
kford=20
and Chris Dalton searched their records for me, but were unable to come up =
with=20
an exact weight.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Andrew=20
Bull</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D182180811-02092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTah=
oma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Bryant=20
[mailto:david@b...]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 01 September 2004=20
12:08<BR><B>To:</B> bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=
=20
[Bell Historians] New poll for bellhistorians<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><TT>>=
; And=20
it is not helped when, as soon as somebody who claims <BR>> expert sta=
tus=20
is told, perfectly politely, that the <BR>> information he has provide=
d is=20
valuable but the compilers <BR>> would prefer to have it confirmed in =
the=20
accepted way, <BR>> then he immediately conducts a 'straw poll' to try=
=20
<BR>> and undermine that system - which it won't because the <BR>> =
only=20
polls that matter are taken scientifically: this one <BR>> isn't=20
.<BR><BR>Petty comments like this do no good either. I was not intending =
to=20
<BR>explain the specific circumstances leading to this poll, but let me=20
<BR>now do so:<BR><BR>1) I have several times attempted to get the tenor=
=20
weight given for <BR>Taunton St James altered from 19-3-14 to 17=BD cwt, =
as=20
19-3-14 is <BR>clearly wrong. The bell (by Thomas Pennington of Exeter 16=
26)=20
is <BR>short-waisted, no canons, and only has a diameter of 47", in E. It=
=20
<BR>cannot possibly weigh 19-3-14. John Baldwin has consistently refused=
=20
<BR>to change it unless I get the opinion of the local ringers. This is a=
=20
<BR>general policy, and I cannot understand it. Why should the opinions <=
BR>of=20
local ringers, who in most cases will not be familiar with aspects <BR>su=
ch as=20
weight estimation, be given such credence?<BR><BR>2) A very well known an=
d=20
prominent bell historian has recently told <BR>me that he no longer bothe=
rs=20
sending corrections to Dove, as on one <BR>occasion the compilers saw fit=
to=20
put what the local ringers wanted <BR>in preference to the information=20
supplied by the bell historian, <BR>which was fully backed up by=20
evidence.<BR><BR>Bell historians are the largest group with the technical=
=20
expertise to <BR>be able to contribute to Dove. If the compilers repeated=
ly=20
ignore <BR>their submissions in favour of uninformed local opinion, then =
throw=20
a <BR>tantrum when the policy is questioned, then I'm sure increasing=20
<BR>numbers of us won't bother to help, and 'Dove' will increasingly=20
<BR>become a work of fiction rather than one of fact.<BR><BR>So, what do=
=20
others think the above bell weighs,=20
then?<BR><BR>David<BR></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan<BR>
service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working<BR>
around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com<BR>
</BODY></HTML>