<HTML>
Absolutely positive - I remember Bill Hughes telling me that he tuned them personally. Not sure why they weren't weighed at the time though.<BR>
<BR>
R<BR>
<BR>
<B>On Fri Aug 15 5:11 , 'David Cawley' <DAVE@h4S_h38whPH4ejpECC5dr6buTshLL24r1WnAuoYB0rAC9tvHjz16lU7ZBnf72LA9KbhENrYutSCMZH2i6cSvHiDLn0k.yahoo.invalid>sent:<BR>
<BR>
</B>
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<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Are you quite sure they were tuned in 1952? They were certainly not weighed, not that this proves anything, and were of course rehung, having spent much of the war at Cleeve Abbey, in Somerset.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">DLC</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=richard.offen@tNK_LD-zjm0t_-CqwQzN_8aJ7oC4yVS8_4TEwLs0uMgMLr6IvvGB15bTg2OQSFOH44HO8_hDUdlqp10BQQjThG27dg.yahoo.invalid href="javascript:top.opencompose('richard.offen@XH0rCaZG6G1i_K42sYySzjSY-JYioEuJhPGAVEXvbHmC8xKCBS5U81X5U1mOkOcvde3nY51CNw.yahoo.invalid','','','')">Richard Offen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com href="javascript:top.opencompose('bellhistorians@ly_J_51P-KrMseROCjpEflauq8o9cNJX1jSvDqjF1fCNOXziN1hDbBLJlGcdAFQzH6USzl6pEh-q80RelG5y6nJcQuJA.yahoo.invalidm','','','')">bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 11, 2008 2:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Bell Historians] 16th and 17th century tuning</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
</DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Optima">Not much help I’m afraid as they were tuned by Whitechapel in the 1950s.<O></O></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Optima">R<O></O></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <ST1><A href="javascript:top.opencompose('bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com','','','')">bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A></ST1> [mailto:<ST1>bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</ST1>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bickerton, Roderic (SELEX <ST1><ST1>GALILEO</ST1>, <ST1>UK</ST1></ST1>)<BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, 11 August 2008 6:18 PM<BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <ST1><A href="javascript:top.opencompose('bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com','','','')">bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A></ST1><BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Bell Historians] 16th and 17th century tuning</SPAN><O></O></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">What evidence is there from complete rings:<O></O></SPAN></P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BACKGROUND: #bdd6ce" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 bgColor=#bdd6ce border=0>
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<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: #eff7ef" vAlign=top bgColor=#eff7ef colSpan=8>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><ST1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Smithfield</SPAN></ST1> <ST1><ST1><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">London</SPAN></B></ST1></ST1>, Gr Lon<BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">S Bartholomew Gt</SPAN></B><O></O></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><ST1><ST1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Bell</SPAN></ST1></ST1><O></O></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Weight<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Nominal<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Note<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Diameter<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Cast<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Founder<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Canons<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">1<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">2cwt<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">F#<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">22.00 "<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">c1510†<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Thomas Bullisdon<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Y<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">2<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">2¾cwt<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">E<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">24.00 "<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">c1510†<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Thomas Bullisdon<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Y<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">3<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">3½cwt<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">D#<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">26.50 "<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">c1510†<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Thomas Bullisdon<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Y<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">4<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">4¼cwt<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">C#<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">29.00 "<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">c1510†<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Thomas Bullisdon<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Y<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">5<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">5½cwt<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">B<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">31.00 "<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">c1510†<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Thomas Bullisdon<O></O></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD style="BACKGROUND: white" vAlign=top bgColor=white>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Y<O></O></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <ST1>bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</ST1> [mailto:<ST1>bellhistori<WBR>ans@yahoogroups.<WBR>com</ST1>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Richard Smith<BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 11 August 2008 11:04<BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <ST1>bellhistorians@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</ST1><BR>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Bell Historians] 16th and 17th century tuning</SPAN><O></O></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">*** WARNING ***<BR>
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<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P><ST1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Richard Offen</SPAN></ST1> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<B>></B> > Is anyone aware of any research into how the tuning of rings<BR>
<B>></B> > of bells evolved during the 16th and 17th centuries?<BR>
<B>></B><BR>
<B>></B> "<A href="http://www.hibberts.co.uk/index.htm" target=_blank>http://www.hibberts<WBR>.co.uk/index.<WBR>htm</A>"<BR>
<B>></B> "<A href="http://www.kirnberger.fsnet.co.uk/" target=_blank>http://www.kirnberg<WBR>er.fsnet.<WBR>co.uk/</A>"<BR>
<BR>
Interesting though both of these are, I'm not sure either <BR>
really touch on what I'm interested on. Or perhaps they do, <BR>
and I haven't managed to locate the relevant parts, in which <BR>
case a pointer would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
The only passage I can find that is slightly relevant to the <BR>
introduction of a major scale in rings of bells is the <BR>
following paragraph on <ST1>Nigel Taylor</ST1>'s site:<BR>
<BR>
| Until the 17th century, few churches had more than four <BR>
| bells. These rarely formed a scale; this was of little <BR>
| consequence as each bell was used for a specific purpose, <BR>
| such as the curfew, sanctus, or tolling for the dead. <BR>
| Little, if any attempt was made to tune additional bells <BR>
| to sound in tune with existing ones. In the mid-17th century, <BR>
| English change-ringing was beginning to develop, and with <BR>
| it the demand for greater numbers of bells in a set. For <BR>
| change-ringing to make any sense, clearly the bells must <BR>
| form a recognisable scale.<BR>
<BR>
But this doesn't seem wholly compatible with John Eisel's <BR>
essay 'Change Ringing: The History of an English Art, Vol 1' <BR>
where he says:<BR>
<BR>
| In the middle of the sixteenth century we have the results <BR>
| of the first surveys on the numbers of church bells. <BR>
| [...] The weights of the bells show that the bells would <BR>
| have formed a ring and this is emphasised by the returns <BR>
| of the Commissioners for the Hundred of Framland in <BR>
| Leicestershire. Three parishes each had 'iij bells of a <BR>
| corde', Croxton Kerrial had 'iiij bells of a ryng', and <BR>
| Muston had 'iiij bells of one ryng'.<BR>
|<BR>
| A study of the 1552 and 1553 inventories shows that most <BR>
| parish churches had between three and five bells, although <BR>
| some had fewer and a handful had more.<BR>
<BR>
I would be interested in what is known about the tuning of <BR>
rings from this period. Heinrich Glarean didn't publish <BR>
'Dodecachordon' until 1547, and this is usually credited as <BR>
the point when the major scale (his Ionian mode) was <BR>
introduced, so it would seem surprising if this was in many <BR>
mid-16th century rings of bells.<BR>
<BR>
Richard<O></O></P></DIV>
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