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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dickon's email requires some clarification. I have
not done any original research on London Medieval Bell Founders, in order to do
so one would need to be latin scholar, and one with a great deal of patience to
be able to translate any medieval documentation that survives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bell Historians of the era of Walters made many
assumptions with regard to allocating known bells to founders. The procedure
seems to have been assessing the age of a group of bells cast by the same
founder, based on the lettering and other marks, if any, and looking
at the known founders mentioned in records for this period and taking a stab in
the dark. In this way, for instance, many bells are described as being by Robert
Burford and William Burford. I don't think there is any proof at all that
connects this group of bells with the Burfords but this is the best guess
that has been made so far. Really these bells should be recorded as "Ascribed
to" rather than cast by.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>With regard to John Walgrave, as far as I know, he
is only mentioned in records as a servant of William Dawe, which would place him
at the end of the 14th or early 15th century.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>George Elphick in his Sussex Bell and Belfries sets
out a good case for the bells with the Balcombe "Walgrave" shield to have been
cast towards the end of the 15th century and hence not by John Walgrave but by
another founder with the initials JW</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Up until recently Dove entries have recorded bells
as Balcombe Shield and by John Walgrave, these bells are all by the same
founder, probably not John Walgrave.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I hope that I have interpreted George Elphick's
researches correctly. Any further views on the subject of Medieval Bell Founders
would be welcome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>DS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dickon@xvvg9vYkedBdJLt_i8uOCGpbaDZnweuybLXVT1i3cpa5ZGMUJLYXDirzHKLt0OFuVsFSUyGzdlXM1YiaZ5ONPMcawAlAWkM.yahoo.invalid href="mailto:dickon@i4lS6F5A02U300_1ZThgYoEb_d7iYM8-gXfSvmPTA-mbyCPC2nAsLdt06hKA4pd1vPPEcZ7CtPpAiGmxPlycRg.yahoo.invalid">Dickon
Love</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com">bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:36
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Bell Historians] Bells ascribed
hitherto to John Walgrave</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="DISPLAY: none"> </SPAN>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>Dear Bell Historians,<BR><BR>I received a note from Dovemaster, John
Baldwin, last month that I think<BR>will be of wider interested to the bell
historian community. It concerns<BR>some research made by David Sloman casting
doubt on bells normally ascribed<BR>to John Walgrave. The resolution in this
correspondence was to rather<BR>denote these bells as "Balcombe Shield". I
wonder if anyone has any<BR>comment?<BR><BR>DrL<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR><BR>JB to DS<BR><BR>David - I cannot say whether 'it is
accepted' or not: all that I can do is<BR>record what people tell me from
their position of knowledge. What I CAN do<BR>(and already have done) is to
try to make sure there are enough comments and<BR>warnings in the pNBR
database for me to be alerted should anyone try to<BR>indicate that a bell
should henceforth be assigned to John Walgrave. .....<BR>I'll now alert the
contributors for the other 'Walgrave' ascriptions that<BR>the date shown
(early C15th) is now amended to late C15th and that they are<BR>now being
shown as Balcombe shield bells.<BR><BR>John <BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>DS to JB<BR><BR>John,<BR><BR>Thank you for your email. I hope
that it is now accepted that all these <BR>bells are Balcombe Shield. It will
certainly erase the anomaly that we have<BR>at the moment, i.e all the bells
recorded as Balcombe Shield and John <BR>Walgrave are undoubtedly by the same
founder. I promise to field any <BR>complaints that arise from the changes
made.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>David.<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR><BR>JB to DS<BR><BR>> David - I do not pretend to be a bell historian
but merely am trying <BR>> to record and make available more readily via
the pNBR what others <BR>> have documented, in this case the tower itself
and Deedes & Walters, <BR>> the latter clearly stating (in my copy) the
bell being the work of <BR>> John Walgrave.<BR>><BR>> I take it that
YOU are contending that the founder should now be <BR>> amended to<BR>>
London ('Balcombe shield') in this case, as should also the founder of
<BR>> all other bells so shown within the pNBR, namely: 3/6 and 4/6 at
<BR>> Ightham, Kent;<BR>> 6/6 at Angersleigh, Som; 3/4 at Donhead St
Andrew, Wilts; 4/4 at <BR>> Adisham, Kent and I will so amend them - but,
if there is any comeback <BR>> from people who 'think they know better' I
will not keep amending them <BR>> while other theories are put forward
and/or knocked down, but rather <BR>> leave them simply as London
('Balcombe shield') UFN. (Details of all <BR>> such changes are kept
on<BR>> file, as I am sure you are aware.) I am fully aware that this
<BR>> question of founder ascription is not an exact science but, in order
<BR>> to make progress here, SOMEONE (in this case I sense YOU have made it
<BR>> 'your issue' now that GPE is no longer with us to do so) has to 'take
<BR>> ownership' of it, otherwise<BR>> the concept of showing a founder
for a bell of that age is effectively <BR>> meaningless. I will make a
database note to myself therefore to refer <BR>> any questioner to
you.<BR>><BR>> Hope that meets (even exceeds!) what you had intended in
the sending <BR>> of your e-mail.<BR>><BR>> So:<BR>>
------------------<BR>> 5: founder amended<BR>> (and similarly for the
other bells mentioned above)<BR>> ------------------<BR>><BR>>
John<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>DS to JB<BR><BR>>
John,<BR>><BR>> Philip Denton mentioned to me today, the tenor bell at
Margaretting, <BR>> being ascribed to John Walgrave. John Walgrave is
mentioned in records <BR>> as being a<BR>> servant of William Dawe and
being active c1408. Bell historians <BR>> ascribed bells with the I.W
shield to Walgrave. However George Elphick <BR>> disputes this<BR>> on
the basis of date and chronology of other founders in same line and<BR>puts
<BR>> a date for I.W shield bells as 1487-1500 and called these bells
<BR>> Balcombe Shield Bells. Hence all bells ascribed to John Walgrave are
<BR>> Balcombe Shield<BR>> Bells. There is no evidence to suggest that
John Walgrave as a servant <BR>> of William Dawe was a founder at
all.<BR>><BR>> Regards,<BR>><BR>> David.<BR><BR></P></DIV><!-- end group email --></BODY></HTML>