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<font face="Times New Roman">I hope an amateur local historian can
submit a humble view.<br>
<br>
From a cataloguing/database point of view, this suggestion has a
lot to offer. In the form of a string of text like a blazon, it
can include the equivalent of several spreadsheet cells in one
element. This could easily be converted into several specific
cells of data. Also, the individual descriptions could be
represented by single/dual/etc characters, and so a very short
coded string could represent a complex design, especially if only
the differences to 'standard' element designs needed to be
specified (such as - in heraldry - rampant, guardant etc.).<br>
<br>
So we could for example begin generically with 'star' and then
progress to '6 points' then 'wavy arms' then 'diameter/height' and
so on. As part of a code string, these four levels of description
could be represented by for example 'S6344' (I'm imagining a
height of 44mm here). Anyone who then uses this database on a
regular basis might before too long immediately know what S6344 in
this part of the code string means. It could also be followed by a
further character which might be a reference leading to a note
field recording any unusual elements of the design in a separate
table, a bit like footnotes or endnotes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would like to add an observation on a different aspect of the
problem, that of data capture in the field. I recently had one
experience of trying to 'capture' two foundry marks on our parish
bells, in response to a request from an author who was working on
a study of kings' head foundry marks around the country. (He
published his study in the form of a map.)<br>
<br>
I'm assuming that to start a new catalogue without relying on
pre-existing data, the project would really have to go right back
to first-hand data acquisition of the marks on the bells in the
church towers. Existing lists could be used to identify what to
expect to find at each location, but from there on in, to enter
specific design elements of individual marks would probably need
to rely on direct personal observation, and a record of each mark
would be made by photography.<br>
<br>
If this is about what would happen, the photography would come
with issues. As we are well aware, foundry marks could be
described and classified according to a set of guidelines, using
an established protocol as suggested with comparison to heraldry
above, or by filling in standardised entry forms (always too
restrictive in a few cases), but the photographic recording would
at the very least need to be controlled in a similar way,
otherwise there will be a mass of photos taken by photographers of
different abilities, using different cameras and lenses set to
different options and values, with or without flashes of different
specs, in differing conditions. This could become a cataloguing
nightmare!<br>
<br>
When I tried to capture our king's head foundry marks with a
bell-ringing colleague, we took lots of photos, which I admit did
allow the author to identify and classify the marks, but it was
clear that several photos were needed 'to be sure' (as well as
some extra replies to specific queries) and they all suffered from
inevitable variations in lighting, angle, focus, lens f stop
value, etc. (there was no professional photographer present!).<br>
<br>
In short, to accurately catalogue foundry marks using photography
would probably require the addition of a great deal of
'superfluous' data to the database, in an attempt to 'understand'
the images actually shown in the photos.<br>
<br>
To start the ball rolling with taking this aspect of the exercise
forward, I suggest two possible options. Others could come up with
more I'm sure.<br>
<br>
Suggestion 1. </font><font face="Times New Roman"><font
face="Times New Roman">Whilst not an archaeologist (I'm not a
lot of things), I have had a lot of exposure to its practice
during my membership of Waltham Abbey Historical Society. In
archaeological reports, finds such as pieces of pottery are very
carefully described and catalogued to the umpteenth degree
(which indeed may be another example, to add to heraldry, of a
parallel discipline worth looking at). I was also an art student
in my Dark Ages, and I can say that whilst it is very common to
see line drawings of these pottery fragments in published
reports instead of photos of them, these drawings are not mere
'artistic views' but are constructed according to a specific set
of conventions to accurately represent the object's dimensions,
in a way which other archaeologists can use as accurate
references to, and comparisons with, finds made in their own
research. This could be applied to foundry marks - I just wish I
knew more about the process to put my case better, but hopefully
others can pick it up and run on with it.<br>
<br>
But how to apply this method to items which cannot be taken back
to labs not 'in the field'? I suggest that instead of using (or
at least relying on) photography, a casting be taken of each
foundry mark, which could then be used to make a positive
'model' (to full scale of course) of the mark, for study and
classification in easier working conditions than a belfry. We
tried this with our king's head marks, but unfortunately the
very short time period we had to work in forced us to make
compromises which rendered the exercise a failure. In essence,
all we could get our hands on at the time was Play-Doh (don't
laugh), which of course refused to set hard even when left in a
fridge for ages. But it did manage to shrink!<br>
<br>
However, I'm sure that a simple 'impression making' kit could be
put together by individual data collectors for use in the field.
something like copying a bank vault key:<br>
<br>
1. find a tobacco tin or jar lid wide enough and deep enough to
contain the foundry mark.<br>
2. obtain some hard-setting modelling clay, such as Das.<br>
3. Take these and some PTFE releasing agent (WD40) into the
belfry.<br>
4. Lightly clean dust and cobwebs off the mark with the PTFE
spray.<br>
This will also stop the clay from sticking to the bell.<br>
5. Fill the lid with Das and press it onto the mark.<br>
If the mark is cut into the bell rather than standing proud,
overfill the lid first.<br>
6. Remove excess Das squeezed out of the sides of the lid.<br>
7. Back at the lab/kitchen, let the clay set hard (some products
need to be baked in an oven).<br>
8. Make a positive from your mould.<br>
<br>
The resultant set of (for want of a better term) 'death head
masks' could be collected together in one national repository,
or several regional ones, to form an archive for future study.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Suggestion 2: Go back to photography, but with a difference.
There have recently been significant strides forward in 2D to 3D
technology, or photogrammetry, and it is becoming more and more
common to find this applied to such things as famous sculptures,
museum artefacts and so on. In short, it is possible with some
programs to accurately record an object in 3D using 2D sources
(photographic images) - even to the point of being able to
extract accurate dimensions of an object from photos, given
certain bits of extra information (mainly the camera lens f stop
setting - which is usually stored as "exif" data in jpeg image
files).<br>
<br>
</font></font><font face="Times New Roman"><font face="Times New
Roman"><font face="Times New Roman"><font face="Times New Roman">The
basic idea is the old stereoview card trick in reverse -
take as few as two (ideally more) photos from different
angles, and use computing power to turn them into a 3D
model, based on the different overlapping of various parts
of the object shown in the photos.<br>
<br>
</font></font>True, this is mostly used in very different
situations to belfries, such as 3D representations of historic
buildings, digital terrain mapping in 3D using video footage
from aircraft and drones, and so on; but the market is evolving
fast, and I think it may (or may soon) be possible to use this
approach to make an accurate 3D record of a foundry mark in a
belfry using nothing more than a mobile phone camera operated by
anyone who owns one.<br>
<br>
Have a look at this product - I must first say that I'm not in
any way connected to them, I only found out about it yesterday,
whilst looking into ways to make a 3D model of our church's
western façade, for an entirely unrelated project. This product
doesn't fit that bill as it's aimed at recording small objects
such as pet cats, and it may well be too 'amateur' for foundry
marks as well, especially as regards extracting dimensions and
measurements from its 3D output (though that could be bypassed
as simply as holding a ruler next to the mark when taking the
photos), but otherwise it might provide a very simple and
straightforward solution to the problem in hand. It's also free.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.seene.co/app/">http://www.seene.co/app/</a><br>
<br>
If the general idea appeals but not this product, a comparison
of the more usual players in this market, which is also a
starting point for researching their capabilities and
suitability, is here.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_photogrammetry_software">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_photogrammetry_software</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I hope this long posting is of some help.<br>
<br>
Lawrence Greenall<br>
Waltham Abbey, Essex<br>
<br>
<br>
</font><br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 26/11/2015 18:25, Richard Smith
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:richard@ex-parrot.com">richard@ex-parrot.com</a> [bellhistorians] wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:alpine.LRH.2.02.1511261756160.18909@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com"
type="cite"> <span style="display:none"> </span>
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Dickon Love <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dickon@lovesguide.com">dickon@lovesguide.com</a> [bellhistorians] wrote:<br>
<br>
> Has anyone done some work on developing an index
system <br>
> for foundry stamps and other marks on bells?<br>
<br>
If I were developing a system for indexing foundry stamps,
<br>
I'd look at how similar problems have been solved in other
<br>
disciplines. The problem of indexing coats of arms is <br>
conceptually very similar. Arms can be indexed by surname
<br>
just as foundry marks can be indexed by founder, but
that's <br>
no help if you want to look up an unfamiliar coat of arms
or <br>
foundry mark. A list of arms ordered by design is known as
<br>
an "ordinary", and they are arranged in alphabetical order
<br>
of the main thing ("principle charge"). Many geometric <br>
patterns have standard names by which they're indexed;
other <br>
things are grouped, for example all animals other than
birds <br>
get listed as "beasts". Within the categories, they're <br>
indexed by number, forms of decoration and other items on
<br>
the arms. I'd take a look at one.<br>
<br>
RAS<br>
</p>
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