<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
/* start of attachment style */
.ygrp-photo-title{
clear: both;
font-size: smaller;
height: 15px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
width: 75px;
}
div.ygrp-photo{
background-position: center;
background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-color: white;
border: 1px solid black;
height: 62px;
width: 62px;
}
div.photo-title
a,
div.photo-title a:active,
div.photo-title a:hover,
div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table div.attach-row {
clear: both;
}
div.attach-table div.attach-row div {
float: left;
/* margin: 2px;*/
}
p {
clear: both;
padding: 15px 0 3px 0;
overflow: hidden;
}
div.ygrp-file {
width: 30px;
valign: middle;
}
div.attach-table div.attach-row div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table div.attach-row div div span {
font-weight: normal;
}
div.ygrp-file-title {
font-weight: bold;
}
/* end of attachment style */
-->
</style>
</head>
<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
code
{mso-style-priority:99;
font-family:"Courier New";}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
tt
{mso-style-priority:99;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
p.attach, li.attach, div.attach
{mso-style-name:attach;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";}
p.bold, li.bold, div.bold
{mso-style-name:bold;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
font-weight:bold;}
p.green, li.green, div.green
{mso-style-name:green;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#628C2A;}
p.replbq, li.replbq, div.replbq
{mso-style-name:replbq;
margin:3.0pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ad, li.ad, div.ad
{mso-style-name:ad;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.underline, li.underline, div.underline
{mso-style-name:underline;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.yshortcuts
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts;}
p.ad1, li.ad1, div.ad1
{mso-style-name:ad1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ad2, li.ad2, div.ad2
{mso-style-name:ad2;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:7.5pt;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.underline1, li.underline1, div.underline1
{mso-style-name:underline1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
text-decoration:underline;}
span.yshortcuts1
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts1;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
font-weight:bold;}
span.yshortcuts2
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts2;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
font-weight:normal;}
span.EmailStyle35
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1934237596;
mso-list-template-ids:-1864722272;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br><br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Whoops, ignore this, wrong recipient!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>G<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 02 December 2015 14:21<br><b>To:</b> bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bell Historians] Indexing foundry marks<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Perhaps we might find a few minutes to discuss this at Warwick??</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>G</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'> bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 27 November 2015 18:26<br><b>To:</b> bellhistorians@yahoogroups.com<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bell Historians] Indexing foundry marks</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I seem to have set some hares running in my inadvertent posting to the list (done in haste, when I thought I was just responding to DRL and GAD) – but there are some good suggestions and helpful points among the recent postings. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>But to clarify my earlier contribution, I should just stress that I’m not suggesting that an index has to be based on (new) photographs of marks (actually taken) from bells. Rubbings, casts and other forms of clear, scaled representation would be fine. My caveat is specifically in relation to drawings and engravings which, by and large, lack the accuracy of detail to be entirely reliable – however useful they are as representations. But in the light of methods and techniques available now, I certainly think that we should step back and select a method (or methods) that best suit(s) modern needs.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>An important point I didn’t include earlier is that marks used in the database must be shown to scale (or with scale measures) and should be identified as belonging to specific bells (even when the mark is representative of one that is believed to be recurrent). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In my experience, all indices, glossaries and aids that attempt to bridge the gap between the visual and verbal (or referenced) worlds – Lawrence Greenall mentions heraldry (and I’d cite architectural glossaries, the NADFAS guide to makers’ marks on stained glass as others) – all suffer from a basic problem. That is, that it’s difficult to find the mark / heraldry / architectural feature for which one wants to find a name / reference / identification. One knows what one has seen but (often) it’s anything but easy to find it when searching among images or representations. With e.g. crosses on bells, one can add filters to separate them into smaller groups (e.g. Maltese cross, cross fleury etc) but then one starts to require a degree of knowledge in the user and/or means there are more places to look. One has to remember the main objective of helping lost souls to find answers. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>While a coding system (Lawrence suggested an example) may well work, it shouldn’t be the only means of reference. Every entry in the index / guide should be self-explicit – and NOT require reference to other pages etc (although the fold-out key sheets in Scott et al “Devon” was really quite a clever addition in that respect). To my mind the “(fig.161)” or “(plate V no.15)” approach in the older County bell books – while perfectly clear and precise – isn’t very helpful in conveying an immediate idea of which marks are involved. In almost 50 years of doing this stuff, however, I still haven’t found a really workable alternative!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Add to this, of course, the fact that at present we have the same mark with different references in different books, hence Warwickshire plate V no.15 = Sussex Plate 42c) = Worcestershire fig.161. A single reference system would certainly be a great improvement.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>These – perhaps not very well expressed, I admit – are some of the difficulties I alluded to in my earlier posting.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As to means of capture, I’m slightly surprised (but then I started doing this stuff a long time ago) that the use of rubbings and casts aren’t immediately familiar to most bell historians. I certainly have a largish collection of rubbings of marks – soft pencil on thin paper to get a good impression when rubbed with the fingers – and a few plaster casts, although I stopped using this method in the 1970s because of their fragility and problems of storage. Both methods, however, are very effective for “capturing” good representations exact-size. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Many historical collections exist, and over the years I’ve made use of most of them – absolutely invaluable, and we risk missing a great deal if we don’t use what’s available. Among them are these:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Ellacombe rubbings – at the British Library</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>North’s rubbings – also at the British Library</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Walters rubbings – at the Society of Antiquaries</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hawkins rubbings (incidentally including good rubbings of most of the Royal Heads bells!!!) – at the Society of Antiquaries</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Elphick plaster casts – at the Taylor Bellfoundry Museum (and some at the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>These are all accessible with varying degrees of ease.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#0070C0'>Chris Pickford</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>E-mail: <a href="mailto:pickford5040@gmail.com">pickford5040@gmail.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:white'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div width="1" style="color: white; clear: both;"/>__._,_.___</div>
<div id="fromDMARC" style="clear:both; margin-top: 10px;">
<hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
Posted by: "George Dawson" <george@gadawson.wanadoo.co.uk> <hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
</div>
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=5029388/grpspId=1707285820/msgId=19902/stime=1449066475" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bellhistorians/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbW8wOTY0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUwMjkzODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3Mjg1ODIwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ0OTA2NjQ3NQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
</ul>
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcjM1MmQ4BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUwMjkzODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3Mjg1ODIwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDQ5MDY2NDc1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;"> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style="text-decoration: none;">Privacy</a> • <a href="mailto:bellhistorians-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="color: white; clear: both;"/>__,_._,___</div>
</body></html>