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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I would like to offer some
clarification on several points touched upon in this thread. While
I am little more than an amateur campanologist, my fields of
peofessional expertise are historical tuning and temperament,
harpsichord and fortepiano construction, and tuning of the later
two as well as small organs.<br>
<br>
No modern organologist/musicologist who has delved into the matter
seriously considers the Ellis version of pitch history to be
little more than an historical curiosity. The go-to reference for
several decades has been Bruce Haynes' monumental work The Story
of A. Pitch did NOT rise over the decades. There were essentially
4 standard levels with relatively little variation: French opera
pitch ≈ 392, German chamber pitch ≈ 415, the "exotic Venetian"
pitch ≈ 440, and German cornetto/trumpet/choir/(organ) pitch ≈
465. There were a few oddballs, such as a high German organ pitch
≈ 490, but the evidence is overwhelming for the basic four.<br>
<br>
A big part of the problem is that there was no accurate way to
measure pitch in cycles per second. Robert Smith published a
method in his 1750 work Harmonics, but it was Scheibler's
Tonmesser, which he first described in his 1838 work Schriften
über musikalische und physikalische Tonmessung und deren
Anwendung auf Pianoforte- und Orgelstimmung, which finally gave
the world an accurate method of quantifying pitch.<br>
<br>
As to the adoption of 440, I have read over 200 books in German on
organ building, temperament, harpsichord and piano design,
instrument tuning and the physics of music from Schlick's 1511
Spiegel der Orgelmacher und Organisten up to the end of the 19th
century. When pitch begins to be specified in this body of
literature, it is the piano design manuals that first do so,
notably those of Kützing (1838 and 1844) and Töpfer (1842). They
both assume 440 as the standard pitch for piano design, at least
in Germany. I realize the rest of the world may have diddled about
before adopting it, but 440 has been around for a long time. And
as Haynes has demonstrated, it was a commonly used standard in
Italy before the 18th century.<br>
<br>
Regarding the matter at hand, I must say that I find it a bit
strange to say anything above a standard pitch frequency is the
next higher pitch. In most scientific endeavors, it is standard
practice to use normal rounding, i.e., given a certain standard
unit, anything with the range of 1/2 less and 1/2 more is THAT
particular unit, i.e. anything from 4,5 to 5,49 is 5 if whole
units are all you can use. Thus anything within +/- 50 cents of a
given note should be THAT note. Of course, temperament is a wild
card which makes the whole idea a bit suspect.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps.<br>
<br>
Ciao,<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 15/5/22 15:17, Richard Offen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:018f01d8685e$27d2f1a0$7778d4e0$@iinet.net.au">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
might find this of interest Andrew:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
href="https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.N8eG2S4X.ZQUTPCsr@gmail.com"
alt="cid:image001.png@01D40F8F.50BED290" class=""
width="321" height="144" border="0"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Bell-historians
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk">mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Andrew Wilby<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 15 May 2022 8:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bell Historians Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are we overlooking the fact that A440 has
only been the International standard since 1953?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Before that we used a variety including
A435, the French A432 etc. That is why York etc were
described as B flat. It was the pitch of the time. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nobody that I have come across can
explain why A440 was settled on?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> A432 has a greater resonance with
music as it divides by 8 and seems to occur naturally vv
organ pipes of 8ft, 16ft, 32 and 64ft etc. Is there a
rationale here?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps someone might delve into the
history of pitch as related to bells.? Also to remember
that not all rings are equal tempered and that might
affect the designation of an individual bell.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm not defending Kemberton A# by the
way. I shall enquire!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">AWRW<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, 15 May 2022, 12:18 Richard
Offen, <<a href="mailto:richard.offen@iinet.net.au"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">richard.offen@iinet.net.au</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">PS. I quite understand it will be a
gargantuan task to go through the whole database to effect
such changes and can certainly see why that is not a
priority.<br>
<br>
Arguments over note names aside, I still think the on-line
Dove is a wonderful facility and thank all those who work
so hard to keep it up to date.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bell-historians [mailto:<a
href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>]
On Behalf Of Richard Offen<br>
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:14 PM<br>
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'<br>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br>
<br>
It may not be high on the priority list, but surely new
additions, such as Kemberton, which are so obviously in
B-flat could have some common musical sense applied to
them!<br>
<br>
R<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bell-historians [mailto:<a
href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>]
On Behalf Of Dickon Love<br>
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:09 PM<br>
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'<br>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br>
<br>
My good friend RCO has asked this question before, and the
answer is the same.<br>
<br>
The description of the key of a ring remains a work in
progress because ultimately it boils down to individual
preference, and we have seen a diversity of preferences
already in this thread. The same argument goes for
preferences in (historic) counties and lieutenancy areas.
In BellBoard, the user can set a preference, and in due
course we hope we can do the same for Dove with respect to
key signatures.<br>
<br>
This will not only apply to which side of the divide the
key note is (the tenor), but also whether the key note
should be used in defining the scale in the first place,
or even some other average applied over all the notes of
the scale, not just the tenor. This latter calculation
would itself be dependent on which temperament you want to
apply the calculations to.<br>
<br>
At the moment it is not particularly high on the list of
priorities when we are still embedding in details of
frames, hence there hasn't been a review of all sets of
bells. So if A# offends you, please know that Bb is not
considered incorrect, or indeed A or B if the tenor is
particularly flat or sharp.<br>
<br>
DrL<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bell-historians <<a
href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>>
On Behalf Of Richard Offen<br>
Sent: 14 May 2022 08:25<br>
To: <a
href="mailto:bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br>
Subject: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br>
<br>
Could I ask why the new ring of six for Kemberton,
Shropshire (soon to be eight) are being shown on the
online Dove website as being in the key of A#?<br>
<br>
If I remember my music theory correctly, A# Major is not
in the circle of fifths as it’s structure, with three
double sharps, is considered too complicated for practical
use. <br>
<br>
The tenor at Kemberton, according to the nominal frequency
given on the Dove page is 11 cents flat of B-flat, so why
not show the ring in that commonly used key? To add insult
to injury, one of the bells is shown as being in E-flat,
which makes even more of a nonsense of it all!<br>
<br>
Rings of bells are musical instruments and therefore, in
my opinion, should conform to the tried and tested
conventions of musical notation. <br>
<br>
Richard<br>
<br>
Sent from Richard Offen's iPad<br>
<br>
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