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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>For those wishing to know even more I would suggest taking a look at; Intervals, Scales and Temperaments by LL S Lloyd and Hugh Boyle, published Macdonald and Jane’s, London (Sorry I don’t have an ISBN).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I think the point has already been made that those who understand and wish to know about these matters would be able to deduce what they need to know perfectly well from the current Dove notation / decision, imperfect though it is (and will always be whatever decision is made). For others, (probably the majority) they won’t care!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Interestingly, the Korg Chromatic Tuner that I inherited from Stephen Ivin is duel-marked with A# / Bb (and also D#/Eb and G#/Ab). Steve used these same notations in his notebooks. (Of course this all pre-dates currently available software such as Wavanal, Audacity, Chord etc). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#767171;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Steve Stanford<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><a href="mailto:steve.h.stanford@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>steve.h.stanford@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Home/Office Tel: +44 (0) 1234 856778<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Mobile Tel: +44 (0) 7742 871724<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nigel Taylor<br><b>Sent:</b> 15 May 2022 18:54<br><b>To:</b> 'Bell Historians Mailing List' <bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'>The use of A# is only nonsense if you are under the illusion that there are only twelve notes per octave. This has really come about because of keyboard instruments which, with few exceptions, are 12-notes per octave instruments. Violins, Violas, Cellos, and trombones however have unlimited fundamentals. When the possibility of playing in all 24 keys was being explored, the solution was to build 19-notes per octave instruments. The photo shows Vincentino's 2-manual cembalo, built in the late 16<sup>th</sup> century (it was expense which resulted in most instruments being provided with only 12 notes per octave). This instrumentis tuned in extended meantone with separate sharps and flats, enabling all 24 keys to be played with good intonation. Woodwind instruments used to be provided with an additional valve, enabling extended meantone. The use of separate sharps and flats was understood and used (notably in string quartets) by composers such as Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'>When Online Dove was established, there was a move to standardize pitch, regardless of the original tuners pitch standard. Some of the rings tuned by Whitechapel to old concert pitch (A=454, A#-45 cents) were subject to note name changes. I was opposed to this, but only reacted when Wedmore were changed from C to D flat which to me was very clearly incorrect. At C#-45, a change to C sharp might have been just about acceptable. As a result, Ben Kipling and myself decided to use note names which described the pitch standard, but with the correct note names. Taylors had supplied rings tuned in G sharp, but incorrectly named the notes as, G#, A#, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#. This implies the semitones are minor.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'> If a ring is tuned to C sharp but sharp of standard pitch, it is therefore D flat, and C sharp if flat of pitch (minus cents) The Swan Tower, Perth therefore are D flat, not C sharp. I marked the ANZAC bell as G flat +4 cents. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'>My preference would be for Online Dove to retain the note names provided by the original tuner, and that should also apply today, but stating the pitch standard used. Whilst various pitch standards have been employed, Gillett & Johnston settled on A=435, Taylors on C=259, and Whitechapel on A=439, but applying different pitch standards to old rings for convenience, including A=454. All three companies used various pitches before adopting their own standards. A=435 was standard American pitch. Paul Taylor grumbled to Douglas Hughes when A=440 was adopted because he knew his own company's pitch standard note pitches without having to look them up!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'>I would endorse AWRW's remarks on equal temperament resulting in a loss of key colour, with only neutral grey being available. Fortunately, there are now many recordings available of music recorded on instruments tuned in a variety of meantone, modified meantone and well temperaments. The latter access all 24 keys, but with a subtle range of key colours, from a smooth and stately C major, to a bright and slightly sizzly F sharp major. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'>NSDT<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=Signature><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> Bell-historians <<a href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>> on behalf of Richard Offen <<a href="mailto:richard.offen@iinet.net.au">richard.offen@iinet.net.au</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> 15 May 2022 14:17<br><b>To:</b> 'Bell Historians Mailing List' <<a href="mailto:bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk">bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>You might find this of interest Andrew:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wam.hr%2Fsadrzaj%2Fus%2FCavanagh_440Hz.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Al%2F7cyQHc2BA9GDc0byMhEf6xI4IUhqcXgCFcSC1kL8%3D&reserved=0">https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=321 height=144 style='width:3.3437in;height:1.5in' id="x_Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D8691B.7F6B1FB0"></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Bell-historians [<a href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk">mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Wilby<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 15 May 2022 8:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bell Historians Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal>Are we overlooking the fact that A440 has only been the International standard since 1953?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal>Before that we used a variety including A435, the French A432 etc. That is why York etc were described as B flat. It was the pitch of the time. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Nobody that I have come across can explain why A440 was settled on?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal> A432 has a greater resonance with music as it divides by 8 and seems to occur naturally vv organ pipes of 8ft, 16ft, 32 and 64ft etc. Is there a rationale here?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Perhaps someone might delve into the history of pitch as related to bells.? Also to remember that not all rings are equal tempered and that might affect the designation of an individual bell.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>I'm not defending Kemberton A# by the way. I shall enquire!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>AWRW<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=xmsonormal>On Sun, 15 May 2022, 12:18 Richard Offen, <<a href="mailto:richard.offen@iinet.net.au">richard.offen@iinet.net.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=xmsonormal>PS. I quite understand it will be a gargantuan task to go through the whole database to effect such changes and can certainly see why that is not a priority.<br><br>Arguments over note names aside, I still think the on-line Dove is a wonderful facility and thank all those who work so hard to keep it up to date.<br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Bell-historians [mailto:<a href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>] On Behalf Of Richard Offen<br>Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:14 PM<br>To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'<br>Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br><br>It may not be high on the priority list, but surely new additions, such as Kemberton, which are so obviously in B-flat could have some common musical sense applied to them!<br><br>R<br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Bell-historians [mailto:<a href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>] On Behalf Of Dickon Love<br>Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:09 PM<br>To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'<br>Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br><br>My good friend RCO has asked this question before, and the answer is the same.<br><br>The description of the key of a ring remains a work in progress because ultimately it boils down to individual preference, and we have seen a diversity of preferences already in this thread. The same argument goes for preferences in (historic) counties and lieutenancy areas. In BellBoard, the user can set a preference, and in due course we hope we can do the same for Dove with respect to key signatures.<br><br>This will not only apply to which side of the divide the key note is (the tenor), but also whether the key note should be used in defining the scale in the first place, or even some other average applied over all the notes of the scale, not just the tenor. This latter calculation would itself be dependent on which temperament you want to apply the calculations to.<br><br>At the moment it is not particularly high on the list of priorities when we are still embedding in details of frames, hence there hasn't been a review of all sets of bells. So if A# offends you, please know that Bb is not considered incorrect, or indeed A or B if the tenor is particularly flat or sharp.<br><br>DrL<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Bell-historians <<a href="mailto:bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a>> On Behalf Of Richard Offen<br>Sent: 14 May 2022 08:25<br>To: <a href="mailto:bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br>Subject: [Bell Historians] Kemberton<br><br>Could I ask why the new ring of six for Kemberton, Shropshire (soon to be eight) are being shown on the online Dove website as being in the key of A#?<br><br>If I remember my music theory correctly, A# Major is not in the circle of fifths as it’s structure, with three double sharps, is considered too complicated for practical use. <br><br>The tenor at Kemberton, according to the nominal frequency given on the Dove page is 11 cents flat of B-flat, so why not show the ring in that commonly used key? To add insult to injury, one of the bells is shown as being in E-flat, which makes even more of a nonsense of it all!<br><br>Rings of bells are musical instruments and therefore, in my opinion, should conform to the tried and tested conventions of musical notation. <br><br>Richard<br><br>Sent from Richard Offen's iPad<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bell-historians mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians</a><br><br><br>-- <br>This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.<br><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mziP8wNbDmu6R%2Fkveo0qLmlsWtElM9cCW36MIS91jh4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.avg.com</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bell-historians mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bell-historians mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bell-historians mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk" target="_blank">Bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk</a><br><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></body></html>