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I think its more then possible that the door behind 8 and 9 might have been an access into the back of the clock, older photos from pre 1933 show this being covered in clock wires along with some numbered plates which might have been the respective pull
offs for the bells used. This is also clearly visible on a print of 1850 which shows the bells when they where a ten </div>
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Oliver </div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of Richard Smith via Bell-historians <bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2026 1:23:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk <bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Smith <richard@ex-parrot.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bell Historians] Gillett and Johnston records</font>
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<div class="PlainText">The drawings of St Mary le Bow that Neal forwarded from the Edinburgh
<br>
Cathedral ringing room are very interesting. They show the ringing room <br>
one level further up the tower than the modern ringing room, and also <br>
the bells a bit higher than they are today. The louvres today are <br>
significantly above the level of the bells, and before the electrically <br>
operated sound control was installed in the last few years, you had to <br>
go up another short ladder from frame-side level to reach the walkway at <br>
the base of the louvres. It looks like the pre-War bells were roughly <br>
level with that walkway.<br>
<br>
What must have been the old ringing room now a void - has only one <br>
window, looking south over the nave roof. Old etchings of the church <br>
certainly suggest that no windows were bricked up when the church was <br>
rebuilt and strengthened after the war, and there's no evidence of that <br>
looking at the tower today.<br>
<br>
The photo of the ringing room in 1933 that was printed in Mark Regan's <br>
Ringing World article (1996, p.1296) shows a ringing room that looks <br>
very similar to the modern one. There's what looks like a door in the <br>
corner behind the treble, and a window, albeit with closed shutters, <br>
between 8 and 9 (This is a bit clearer if you look at a paper copy <br>
rather than the scans.) In today's ringing room, the window between 8 <br>
and 9 is the north-facing door on to the balcony overlooking Cheapside, <br>
and the door behind the treble leads to the staircase in the north-west <br>
corner of the tower, which continues up to the bell chamber and beyond.<br>
<br>
The problem is, if the 1933 ringing room is the modern void with only a <br>
south-facing window, and that is what we see between 8 and 9 in the <br>
photograph, then the rope circle is rotated 180°, and the door behind <br>
the treble cannot be the door on to the staircase. Clearly something is <br>
wrong. Either the ringing room had already been dropped down to its <br>
modern level by the time the photo was taken though I cannot see any <br>
indication of this in reports of the 1933 work or the shutters between <br>
8 and 9 are not a window, or the door in the corner behind the treble <br>
does not go to the stairway.<br>
<br>
It's easy to believe the shutters might have been closed on a <br>
south-facing window in order to take the photo, if it was taken on a <br>
sunny day, so I don't think we can read anything into the shutters being <br>
closed. There is what looks like a bolt at the top of the shutters, so <br>
I don't think it's simply a piece of panelling that looks like shutters. <br>
Possibly the window shutters are actually the doors to an Ellacombe <br>
apparatus. I'm not aware that the church had one, but it wouldn't seem <br>
especially surprising. Another possibility is that the door behind the <br>
treble is actually a ringers' toilet or urinal. These were not <br>
uncommon, and would normally be found in the corner of a ringing room. <br>
But that's a guess too.<br>
<br>
Does anyone have any further information on this?<br>
<br>
RAS<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu 12/03/2026 12:46, Neal Dodge via Bell-historians wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Attached is a picture of the drawing in the Edinburgh cathedral ringing <br>
> room. The plan third from the bottom on the right is the relevant one, <br>
> but limited frame details.<br>
> <br>
> Many Thanks<br>
> Neal Dodge<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2026, 09:10 Michael A Williams, <michael@oldlight.co.uk <br>
> <<a href="mailto:michael@oldlight.co.uk">mailto:michael@oldlight.co.uk</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> There are tower plans as a set of blueprints, produced by G&J and<br>
> dating from 1933, in the ASCY Library. I've not studied them in any<br>
> great detail but I can look at them when I am next there to see if<br>
> they may be of interest.<br>
> <br>
> Michael<br>
> (ASCY Librarian)<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2026 at 06:57, Chris Pickford via Bell-historians<br>
> <bell-historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk <<a href=""></a>mailto:bell-<br>
> historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> The tuning books are at Croydon Library/Archives, along with<br>
> just a few other records (nothing very useful, to be honest).<br>
> These were in the custody of a successor company Cope Allman <br>
> until Alan Buswell persuaded them to deposit them at Croydon.<br>
> Alan has done sterling work with these records for many decades<br>
> now and has a database with all the main details (weights,<br>
> diameters, tuning figures etc).____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> The order books and quite a lot of other clockmaking records <br>
> job files, photographs are with the current G&J clockmaking<br>
> firms. There is limited access by arrangement. I have used them<br>
> from time to time, but not for quite a while. ____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> I doubt, though, if the surviving records represent much more<br>
> than (say) 5% of what once existed and the great bulk of a<br>
> once great company archive has almost certainly been lost____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> As I recall theres a large scale drawing of Bow tower in the<br>
> ringing room at Edinburgh Cathedral with an inset drawing<br>
> showing the plan of the frame.____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> */Chris Pickford/*____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> *From:*Bell-historians <bell-historians-<br>
> bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk <<a href=""></a>mailto:bell-historians-<br>
> bounces@lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> *On Behalf Of *oliver Lee via<br>
> Bell-historians<br>
> *Sent:* 11 March 2026 23:14<br>
> *To:* 'Bell Historians' <bell-<br>
> historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk <<a href=""></a>mailto:bell-<br>
> historians@lists.ringingworld.co.uk>><br>
> *Cc:* oliver Lee <oliverbellringer@outlook.com<br>
> <<a href="mailto:oliverbellringer@outlook.com">mailto:oliverbellringer@outlook.com</a>>><br>
> *Subject:* [Bell Historians] Gillett and Johnston records____<br>
> <br>
> __ __<br>
> <br>
> Recently I have taken an interest in the old pre war 12 at St<br>
> Mary Le Bow and as these where mostly recast by Gillett and<br>
> Johnston in 1933 if was wondering if any of their original<br>
> records survive?, I know that their tuning books are still in<br>
> Existence but I have never heard anyone say anything else about<br>
> their other records although I can only assume that they survive<br>
> in some form or another and I think I can remember my friend Kye<br>
> leaver saying that he had seen some records in the croydon<br>
> Library that included some frame plans!. I would be very<br>
> interested if anyone else can add to this ____<br>
> <br>
> Regards____<br>
> <br>
> Oliver lee____<br>
> <br>
> P/s does anyone happen to have a copy of the Old frame at Bow to<br>
> hand? I'm convinced that the modern frame is a carbon copy<br>
> replica of it!____<br>
> <br>
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