From andrew.russel at b... Tue Jun 4 00:31:59 2002 From: andrew.russel at b... (Andrew Russel) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:31:59 +0100 Subject: Southampton bell foundry Message-ID: <001d01c20b56$dc2fac40$38127ad5@n2g2r0> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archaeological excavations in Southampton have found a rectangular bell cas= ting pit, in which at least 6 bells seem to have been cast.It was big enoug= h to do two at a time. Date is probably 17th/18th century. Does anyone know= of a Southampton bell maker, or bells in the area that might be from one? = Could the Salisbury foundry have set up a base in Southampton for a specifi= c job? Any clues welcome!=20 Dr Andy Russel Archaeologist -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Tue Jun 4 11:47:12 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:47:12 +0100 Subject: Truro Message-ID: <3CFC9AB0.14E9EAD9@y...> Has anyone got details of the framework/fittings of the clock and sanctus bells at Truro Cathedral? David From robert_de7 at y... Tue Jun 4 14:27:07 2002 From: robert_de7 at y... (=?iso-8859-1?q?Robert=20Lunn?=) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:27:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bell Historians] Truro In-Reply-To: <3CFC9AB0.14E9EAD9@y...> Message-ID: <20020604132707.63648.qmail@w...> According to a eight page booklet I picked up from Truro Cathedral in February this year it says there is now no clock face as this was removed because it became unsafe. The bells in the clock tower are Sanctus bell 31 1/2" diameter C Sharp Pack & Chapman of London Fecit 1771 Truro Chas. Pye Rector Richd. Jewell & JNo. Allen Gent CH Wardens One of two original bells in st Marys parish church, it is complete with its original cannons. It was apparently unused for many years, but when the clock bells were re hung on a new teak frame in 1972 it was brought in to its present use as a sanctus bell. Treble Diameter 26 1/2" D Flat John Taylor & co 1904 Second 29" D Flat As above Third 32" B As above Forth 41 3/4" F Sharp As above Tenor 45 1/2" E Pack & Chapman of London Fecit Truro Chs Pye Rector Richd. Jewll & Jno Allen Gent ch. Wardens1770 given by Viscount Falmouth This bell is the second of the two original st Marys bells. It is hung for ringing up on a gudgeons and with a wheel. The clock mechanism was made by John Moore & sons Clerkenwell in 1851,restored in 1887, chimes fitted by John Smith & sons of Derby 1905 and the same firm fitted a automatic winding unit in 1972. --- David Bryant wrote:
Has anyone got details of the framework/fittings of the clock and
sanctus bells at Truro Cathedral?

David
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__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From djb122 at y... Tue Jun 4 18:34:51 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Truro References: <20020604132707.63648.qmail@w...> Message-ID: <3CFCFA3B.A38700D5@y...> Thanks, but I've got the booklet. I wondered exactly how the bells are hung, what type of fittings they have and who by, etc. David Robert Lunn wrote: > > According to a eight page booklet I picked up from > Truro Cathedral in February this year it says there is > now no clock face as this was removed because it > became unsafe. > The bells in the clock tower are > Sanctus bell 31 1/2" diameter C Sharp > Pack & Chapman of London Fecit 1771 Truro Chas. Pye > Rector Richd. Jewell & JNo. Allen Gent CH Wardens > One of two original bells in st Marys parish church, > it is complete with its original cannons. It was > apparently unused for many years, but when the clock > bells were re hung on a new teak frame in 1972 it was > brought in to its present use as a sanctus bell. > > Treble Diameter 26 1/2" D Flat > John Taylor & co 1904 > > Second 29" D Flat > As above > > Third 32" B > As above > > Forth 41 3/4" F Sharp > As above > Tenor 45 1/2" E > Pack & Chapman of London Fecit > Truro Chs Pye Rector Richd. Jewll & Jno Allen Gent ch. > Wardens1770 given by Viscount Falmouth > This bell is the second of the two original st Marys > bells. It is hung for ringing up on a gudgeons and > with a wheel. > > The clock mechanism was made by John Moore & sons > Clerkenwell in 1851,restored in 1887, chimes fitted by > John Smith & sons of Derby 1905 and the same firm > fitted a automatic winding unit in 1972. > > --- David Bryant wrote: >
> > > > Has anyone got details of the framework/fittings of > the clock and
> sanctus bells at Truro Cathedral?
>
> David
> > >
> > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' > Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an > email to > bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
> >
> >
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms > of Service. >
> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To > unsubscribe from the list send an email to > bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From djb122 at y... Wed Jun 5 22:37:05 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:37:05 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: <001d01c20b56$dc2fac40$38127ad5@n2g2r0> Message-ID: <001701c20cd9$26c3d500$a76287d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nobody seems to have replied, so I'll make some comments, for what they're = worth! It seems pretty likely that we're looking at an itinerant bellfounder. Can = you get a more exact date for the pit? Probably the best place to start is = to look at the present bells and any records of former ones in any nearby c= hurches - the churchwardens' accounts may name founders. If the founder of = any bells which may have been cast locally can be identified, this may answ= er the question. It really needs someone with knowledge of the bells in the= Southampton area, which I don't have and I don't think we have anyone from= that area on the list - can anyone suggest any local bell enthusiasts who = may be able to help? David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrew Russel=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry Archaeological excavations in Southampton have found a rectangular bell c= asting pit, in which at least 6 bells seem to have been cast.It was big eno= ugh to do two at a time. Date is probably 17th/18th century. Does anyone kn= ow of a Southampton bell maker, or bells in the area that might be from one= ? Could the Salisbury foundry have set up a base in Southampton for a speci= fic job? Any clues welcome!=20 Dr Andy Russel Archaeologist Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.russel at b... Wed Jun 5 23:19:11 2002 From: andrew.russel at b... (Andrew Russel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:19:11 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: <001d01c20b56$dc2fac40$38127ad5@n2g2r0> <001701c20cd9$26c3d500$a76287d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <001d01c20cdf$0548e9a0$01447ad5@n2g2r0> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that. I have found a good site by Steve Noyes on the Isle of Wig= ht bells www.noyes.org.uk/iw/towers which list the towers and bells on the Island. The older bells, 17th centur= y mostly, come from Chertsey, Salisbury, Gloucester, and Romsey, but there = are a few by 'RB' and 'Anthony Bond' whose foundries are not known it seems= , and there is a John Higden who moved around as well. I now have two documentary references to bells being cast in Romsey, where = archaeologists have found two foundries of the right date but no evidence o= f bell production, and good archaeological evidence of a foundry in Southam= pton but no written records. C'est la vie!=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DrLove at s... Thu Jun 6 10:04:32 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry Message-ID: > Archaeological excavations in Southampton have found a rectangular bell casting pit. Andrew, Is the bell pit in the proximity of a particular church (or site of a former church) in Southampton? Dickon Love ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From dave at d... Thu Jun 6 12:35:17 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:35:17 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: <001d01c20b56$dc2fac40$38127ad5@n2g2r0> Message-ID: <002e01c20d4e$3cfe3ca0$cce5403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hampshire Church Bells (W. E. Colchester, 1920, facsimile reprint 1979) has= an interesting chapter on itinerants (pp 53-65); Colchester's work is usu= ally treated with some caution - though by no means to be dismissed out of = hand. Recorded 17th-century bells by founders working in Southampton include a ri= ng of six at St Michael's Wm & Richard Purdue 1663; treble recast pr added = by Clement Tosier 1693, 4th recast by Wm Tosier 1733. There must have been bells at Holy Rood before 1742 (the 8 destroyed in 194= 2) and in the predecessors of the last three versions of St Mary's bells. For West Country bellfounders good lines of enquiry are Preb. John Scott wh= o has published on bell-pits in Exeter, and Sqn Ldr George Massey of Frome;= whilst the authority on Wiltshire is Chris Dalton author of the recent Chu= rch Bells of Dorset. Andrew, if you want addresses / phone numbers ring m= e on 0116-252 8727 DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrew Russel=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: 04 June 2002 00:31 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry Archaeological excavations in Southampton have found a rectangular bell c= asting pit, in which at least 6 bells seem to have been cast.It was big eno= ugh to do two at a time. Date is probably 17th/18th century. Does anyone kn= ow of a Southampton bell maker, or bells in the area that might be from one= ? Could the Salisbury foundry have set up a base in Southampton for a speci= fic job? Any clues welcome!=20 Dr Andy Russel Archaeologist Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at d... Thu Jun 6 12:45:48 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:45:48 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Truro References: <3CFC9AB0.14E9EAD9@y...> Message-ID: <003401c20d4f$b4883cc0$cce5403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw them as they were when on holiday with friends from school in 1960 ! = Memories are a bit hazy but the six bells (the musical sequence I don't kn= ow) were all in the tower and as far as I can remember in an iron frame; th= e smallest unused; the next four hung dead in iron bearings, just as clock = bells, and the tenor hung for ringing with gear of 1904; no rope I recall. = All in the SE tower (the Green Tower) completed at that time at the west e= nd of the medieval south choir aisle; bells 2-5 of 1904, others L&P. I understand that they got into a state, the oak foundation beams became ve= ry rotten and Taylors rehung them, to the best of my knowledge all dead, some time in the last 15/20 years. No details but of course the foundry wi= ll have records. DLC=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Bryant=20 To: Bell Historians=20 Sent: 04 June 2002 11:47 Subject: [Bell Historians] Truro Has anyone got details of the framework/fittings of the clock and sanctus bells at Truro Cathedral? David This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 6 16:40:27 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:40:27 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: <001d01c20b56$dc2fac40$38127ad5@n2g2r0> <001701c20cd9$26c3d500$a76287d9@oemcomputer> <001d01c20cdf$0548e9a0$01447ad5@n2g2r0> Message-ID: <3CFF826A.B576395E@y...> > Andrew Russel wrote: > but there are a few by 'RB' and 'Anthony Bond' whose foundries are not > known it seems, and there is a John Higden who moved around as well. I've seen a good article on Anthony Bond. I'll see if I can find it. His output was not high, suggesting that he had another occupation in addition to bellfounding, and it seems likely that he was itinerant. He cast mostly odd bells. I think his only complete ring was the four (later augmented to five by another founder) at St Lawrence, Winchester. Of Bond's four, one remains in the tower, one is at Winchester Cathedral and two at Upper Clatford. David From andrew.russel at b... Thu Jun 6 19:12:14 2002 From: andrew.russel at b... (Andrew Russel) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:12:14 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: Message-ID: <001c01c20d85$b05272c0$e9a601d5@n2g2r0> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The site was about 500m outside the town walls, in an area of inns and pubs= . All the churches are within the walls. Closest place of worship would be = Congregational chapel across the road, built in ?1780s. Would they have had= a peal? One of their deacons was a chap called Taylor who had his own foun= dry elsewhere in the town for naval blocks and ships pumps so I would have = though he would have cast any bells needed by his church. Andy Russel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 6 19:16:30 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:16:30 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] re:Southampton bell foundry References: <001c01c20d85$b05272c0$e9a601d5@n2g2r0> Message-ID: <3CFFA6FE.69E2BF1C@y...> > Andrew Russel wrote: > Closest place of worship > would be Congregational chapel across the road, built in ?1780s. Would > they have had a peal? Highly unlikely. Congregational chapels rarely have bells. However, the bells cast may well have been for one of the churches within the walls but cast extramurally because of the fire risk, as I believe was common with founding activities. David From djb122 at y... Tue Jun 11 12:05:24 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:05:24 +0100 Subject: Esoteric question Message-ID: <3D05D974.248E0907@y...> Yes, it's esoteric and obscure question time again! Does anyone know where and when Taylor's first used flange tops on the trebles of a ring to hang them out further? The earliest I've come across are the 1904 trebles of 8 at All Saints, Pontefract. Any earlier offers? David From djb122 at y... Tue Jun 11 12:10:24 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:10:24 +0100 Subject: St Dunstan-in-the-East Message-ID: <3D05DAA0.562D9F11@y...> I was recently talking to someone who was welll acquianted with the late lamented bells of St Dunstan in the East. He told me that after the tenor had been broken up to get it out, it was realised that the vaulted ceiling in the base of the tower was made in sections, so it would have been possibly to partially dismantle it to get the bell out intact. David From dave at d... Tue Jun 11 13:59:49 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:59:49 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East References: <3D05DAA0.562D9F11@y...> Message-ID: <002401c21147$df590aa0$5aee403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How right he is; it is a circular hole - the original stone vault, around w= hich a new plaster or some such moulding had been fixed after the bells wer= e installed in 1951. The bells came out in 1970; the discovery about the m= oulding was made only in more recent years, and there was no one around who= could remember the circumstances attending the installation. If you give me a ring I can perhaps give you a few other details; for those= who haven't seen it look at Dickon's almost record length page on this tow= er: but be warned if you are of a nervous disposition: there is a picture o= f myself looking at the bells "up" ! DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Bryant=20 To: Bell Historians=20 Sent: 11 June 2002 12:10 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East I was recently talking to someone who was welll acquianted with the late lamented bells of St Dunstan in the East. He told me that after the tenor had been broken up to get it out, it was realised that the vaulted ceiling in the base of the tower was made in sections, so it would have been possibly to partially dismantle it to get the bell out intact. David This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DrLove at s... Tue Jun 11 15:07:29 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:07:29 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East Message-ID: >If you give me a ring I can perhaps give you a few other details; Be prepared for a long call :-) > for those who haven't seen it look at Dickon's almost record length page on this tower: Hey - I am just warming up on that one! > but be warned if you are of a nervous disposition: there is a picture of myself looking at the bells "up" ! It will get worse ... a young Pladdys will also soon adorn the page! DrL ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From djb122 at y... Tue Jun 11 16:47:34 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:47:34 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East References: Message-ID: <3D061B96.64984106@y...> "LOVE, Dickon" wrote: > It will get worse ... a young Pladdys will also soon adorn the page! Twas he who told me about the vault. Rumour has it that he lived in the ringing chamber for some while as a student! David From djb122 at y... Wed Jun 12 16:18:49 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:18:49 +0100 Subject: Sites of bellfoundries Message-ID: <3D076659.EE44998D@y...> I'm looking for published information on the sites within towns of bellfoundries in the pre-Reformation period. I've got some information, but need some more. I've either got or have access to most of the standard texts. Any help appreciated! David From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 13 21:02:28 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:02:28 +0100 Subject: St Dunstan's Message-ID: <3D08FA54.2B25A48A@y...> A few days late, but I think it's worth mentioning that apparently some of the framesides went with the bells to America, and the remainder of the framework and fittings were reused by Taylor's as required, and no record was kept of their destinations. I was told this by Andrew Higson. David From mike at m... Fri Jun 14 09:04:30 2002 From: mike at m... (mikechester_uk) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:04:30 -0000 Subject: St Dunstan's In-Reply-To: <3D08FA54.2B25A48A@y...> Message-ID: Is not this the ring that is in the process of being bought from the winery and re-assembled as a ringing peal somewhere (in the USA?) Mike Chester From DrLove at s... Fri Jun 14 09:59:48 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:59:48 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East Message-ID: "A few days late, but I think it's worth mentioning that apparently some of the framesides went with the bells to America, and the remainder of the framework and fittings were reused by Taylor's as required, and no record was kept of their destinations. I was told this by Andrew Higson." Quite true. The other (hot off the press) piece of news is that the intended purchase of the bells is now not going ahead (they were to be purchased, restored to being a 21cwt octave and augmented to ten to hang in a tower in Western USA). At least certainly not at the moment. DrL ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 14 11:19:51 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:19:51 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: St Dunstan's References: Message-ID: <3D09C347.F259F225@y...> Yes - apparently they're to be remodeeled back to what they were and augmented to ten. I'm told that they've been bought by Laith Reynolds, and are destined for some University in America - I have been told where but I can't remember. David mikechester_uk wrote: > > Is not this the ring that is in the process of being bought from the > winery and re-assembled as a ringing peal somewhere (in the USA?) > > Mike Chester > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To > unsubscribe from the list send an email to > bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 14 11:23:33 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:23:33 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East References: Message-ID: <3D09C425.6A114287@y...> "LOVE, Dickon" wrote: > Quite true. The other (hot off the press) piece of news is that the > intended > purchase of the bells is now not going ahead (they were to be > purchased, > restored to being a 21cwt octave and augmented to ten to hang in a > tower in > Western USA). At least certainly not at the moment. Why's that then? David From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 14 11:24:40 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:24:40 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: [c-r] St Martin's Tipton] Message-ID: <3D09C468.93016E15@y...> This was on the c-r mailing list. Anyone know the answer? David -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [c-r] St Martin's Tipton Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:21:21 +0100 From: owner-change-ringers at e... Reply-To: change-ringers at n... To: I've been asked this question on the basis that Tipton is just over the hill from here but' its another diocese and Association so I've no direct knowledge. I seem to remember the topic coming up awhile ago. "Towerbase states that St. Martin's, Tipton is a lost ring. To your knowledge was the building demolished? The OS map doesn't show a tower at the map reference given for it. If it has gone can you try to get me a photograph/drawing of it? " Can anybody give me any details? Keith ____________________________________ Keith Underdown Tower Captain St Thomas Dudley Webmaster Publicity Officer Spire Appeal Committee www.cofe-st-thomas-dudley.org.uk ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2138D.2F183FB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've = been asked this=20 question on the basis that Tipton is just over the hill from here but' = its=20 another diocese and Association so I've no direct knowledge. I seem to = remember=20 the topic coming up awhile ago.

"Towerbase states that St. Martin's, = Tipton is a=20 lost ring. To your knowledge was = the=20 building demolished? The OS map doesn't show a tower at the map reference given for it. If it has = gone can you=20 try to get me a = photograph/drawing of=20 it? "

Can anybody give=20 me any details?

Keith

____________________________________
Keith=20 Underdown
Tower Captain
St Thomas = Dudley=20 Webmaster
Publicity = Officer Spire=20 Appeal Committee
www.cofe-st-thomas-dudley.org.uk
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2138D.2F183FB0-- From DrLove at s... Fri Jun 14 11:29:18 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:29:18 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East Message-ID: "LOVE, Dickon" wrote: > Quite true. The other (hot off the press) piece of news is that the > intended > purchase of the bells is now not going ahead (they were to be > purchased, > restored to being a 21cwt octave and augmented to ten to hang in a > tower in > Western USA). At least certainly not at the moment. > Why's that then? Cash flow. Anyone out there want to buy some vineyard bells and donate them to St Magnus the Martyr, London Bridge? :-) DrL ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 14 11:31:15 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:31:15 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East References: Message-ID: <3D09C5F3.8079EBC3@y...> "LOVE, Dickon" wrote: > > Why's that then? > > Cash flow. > > Anyone out there want to buy some vineyard bells and donate them to St > Magnus the Martyr, London Bridge? :-) The shipping costs are going to be the problem, presumably - the bells themselves won't be worth a huge amount. Are the winery actively trying to get rid of them then? David From DrLove at s... Fri Jun 14 11:46:51 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:46:51 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Dunstan-in-the-East Message-ID: "The shipping costs are going to be the problem, presumably - the bells themselves won't be worth a huge amount. Are the winery actively trying to get rid of them then?" I don't think they are actively trying to get rid of them, but they do appear to be amienable to selling them should a buyer come along. I don't know what the shipping costs are likely to be, but maybe someone on this list does? ... this is all pretty hypothetical though. DrL ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From mike at m... Fri Jun 14 12:21:35 2002 From: mike at m... (mikechester_uk) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:21:35 -0000 Subject: St Martin's Tipton In-Reply-To: <3D09C468.93016E15@y...> Message-ID: I know nothing about the church, but according to the Lost Rings Data on the Keltek site Tipton, W. Mids., S. Martin 8 12-0-25 Lost 1963? 6 bells scrapped in 1963, treble & tenor sold in 1967. RW 3489 p220 Mike Chester From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 14 13:03:22 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:03:22 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] St Martin's Tipton References: Message-ID: <3D09DB8A.5F49E623@y...> Ah-ha. Now I remember - I think it's in Stuart Hutchieson's excellent little book. I'll have to check when I get home. David mikechester_uk wrote: > > I know nothing about the church, but according to the Lost Rings Data > on the Keltek site > > Tipton, W. Mids., S. Martin 8 12-0-25 Lost 1963? 6 bells scrapped in > 1963, treble & tenor sold in 1967. RW 3489 p220 > > Mike Chester > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To > unsubscribe from the list send an email to > bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From Tim at t... Sun Jun 16 13:56:32 2002 From: Tim at t... (Tim Jackson) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:56:32 +0100 Subject: Tipton and other Lost Rings Message-ID: <000c01c21536$1e2bcf00$bf81fea9@vcj> It was me who sent in the grid reference shown in TowerBase for Tipton. It is based on reliable information provided to me by someone who rings in the area, so I am as confident as I can be that it is correct. The church was still shown on OS map 139 that I borrowed from the library, but the map was probably around 10 years old and it was only shown as a "+" (i.e. no tower or spire). Over the past 12 months or so, I have sent in well in excess of 100 grid references for Lost Rings, based on personal knowledge and information derived from many different sources and people (thanks again if you were one of these). So, if you spot any that are wrong then you can blame me. Better still, drop me a line and I will get it corrected. There are still around 30 towers listed with no known grid reference, for which I currently have insufficient information to be confident of the exact location. If you have any information that could help me then this would be gratefully accepted. If possible, I would prefer a description of the location as well as the grid reference, plus any other supporting information that you may have. Many thanks, Tim Balscote, Oxfordshire, Home Farm Birkenhead, Cheshire, S Mary Bolton, Lancashire, S Bartholomew Bolton, Lancashire, S George Bolton, Lancashire, Saviour Bradford, Yorkshire, S James, Bolton Bradford, Yorkshire, S John, Little Horton Burnley, Lancashire, Holy Trinity, Habergham Eaves Carlisle, Cumberland, S Stephen Earlsheaton, Yorkshire, S Peter Grimsby, Lincolnshire, S Andrew Hoddlesden, Lancashire, S Paul Jarrow on Tyne, Durham, S Peter Leeds, Yorkshire, S Francis of Assisi, Holbeck Leeds, Yorkshire, S Matthew, Holbeck Leicester, Leicestershire, S George Leicester, Leicestershire, S Mark Lincoln, Lincolnshire, S Peter at Arches Little Heath, Essex, S James Liverpool, Lancashire, S Peter Liverpool, Lancashire, Emmanuel, Everton Liverpool, Lancashire, S Mary, Grassendale Manchester, Lancashire, S John Manchester, Lancashire, Holy Trinity, Hulme Plymouth, Devon, Dockyard Chapel, Devonport Plymouth, Devon, S George, Stonehouse Rochdale, Lancashire, S Alban Shrewsbury, Shropshire, S Michael & All Angels Wakefield, Yorkshire, S John the Baptist From djb122 at y... Sun Jun 16 14:43:25 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:43:25 +0100 Subject: bells for sale Message-ID: <3D0C95FD.26DFBD03@y...> Found this architectural salvage website at http://www.rmills.co.uk/ - click on 'church decoration' then 'bells'. A number there, seemingly small and rather expensive! David From matthewhigby at a... Sun Jun 16 22:02:14 2002 From: matthewhigby at a... (matthewhigby at a...) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:02:14 EDT Subject: [Bell Historians] bells for sale Message-ID: The bell with the code: VD97239 which is dated 1893 looks to me like one of those Taylor lost wax castings. Any opinions? The one coded:VD97273 is G&J old style - I had an identical one pass through the works about a year ago. Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at d... Sun Jun 16 22:13:43 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:13:43 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Tipton References: <000c01c21536$1e2bcf00$bf81fea9@vcj> Message-ID: <002101c2157a$b28eeda0$b5a2403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The church is still there, very much closed and completely boarded up by th= e Lichfield diocese. It is rather a fine building. I did see inside on= ce and there were still a couple of bells and some peal boards of quality l= ying around at the west end. The part-rebuilt west "tower" is the ground = floor and part of the intended ringing room. TimJ's map reference is corr= ect. DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tim Jackson=20 To: Bell Historians=20 Sent: 16 June 2002 13:56 Subject: [Bell Historians] Tipton and other Lost Rings It was me who sent in the grid reference shown in TowerBase for Tipton. = It is based on reliable information provided to me by someone who rings in t= he area, so I am as confident as I can be that it is correct. The church wa= s still shown on OS map 139 that I borrowed from the library, but the map w= as probably around 10 years old and it was only shown as a "+" (i.e. no towe= r or spire). Over the past 12 months or so, I have sent in well in excess of 100 grid references for Lost Rings, based on personal knowledge and information derived from many different sources and people (thanks again if you were = one of these). So, if you spot any that are wrong then you can blame me. Better still, drop me a line and I will get it corrected. There are still around 30 towers listed with no known grid reference, for which I currently have insufficient information to be confident of the ex= act location. If you have any information that could help me then this would= be gratefully accepted. If possible, I would prefer a description of the location as well as the grid reference, plus any other supporting information that you may have. Many thanks, Tim Balscote, Oxfordshire, Home Farm Birkenhead, Cheshire, S Mary Bolton, Lancashire, S Bartholomew Bolton, Lancashire, S George Bolton, Lancashire, Saviour Bradford, Yorkshire, S James, Bolton Bradford, Yorkshire, S John, Little Horton Burnley, Lancashire, Holy Trinity, Habergham Eaves Carlisle, Cumberland, S Stephen Earlsheaton, Yorkshire, S Peter Grimsby, Lincolnshire, S Andrew Hoddlesden, Lancashire, S Paul Jarrow on Tyne, Durham, S Peter Leeds, Yorkshire, S Francis of Assisi, Holbeck Leeds, Yorkshire, S Matthew, Holbeck Leicester, Leicestershire, S George Leicester, Leicestershire, S Mark Lincoln, Lincolnshire, S Peter at Arches Little Heath, Essex, S James Liverpool, Lancashire, S Peter Liverpool, Lancashire, Emmanuel, Everton Liverpool, Lancashire, S Mary, Grassendale Manchester, Lancashire, S John Manchester, Lancashire, Holy Trinity, Hulme Plymouth, Devon, Dockyard Chapel, Devonport Plymouth, Devon, S George, Stonehouse Rochdale, Lancashire, S Alban Shrewsbury, Shropshire, S Michael & All Angels Wakefield, Yorkshire, S John the Baptist This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart at h... Mon Jun 17 19:18:30 2002 From: stuart at h... (Stuart Hutchieson) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:18:30 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Tipton References: <000c01c21536$1e2bcf00$bf81fea9@vcj> <002101c2157a$b28eeda0$b5a2403e@default> Message-ID: <000001c2162b$ba66cfa0$4b03fea9@scwh> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The church is still there, very much closed and completely boarded up by = the Lichfield diocese. It is rather a fine building. I did see inside = once and there were still a couple of bells and some peal boards of quality= lying around at the west end. The part-rebuilt west "tower" is the groun= d floor and part of the intended ringing room. TimJ's map reference is co= rrect. The peal boards were removed in the mid 1990's due to concerns over their f= uture. The church was about to be leased from the C of E but I am not sure = if this ever actually happened. In all there were about 10 boards, 2 of whi= ch were marble. Another marble board was found not in the ringing room at a= ll but at the back of the church. It was left in situ. The remaining boards= were transferred to the church in the High Street (St John's I believe). T= here they are on display in the upstairs gallery.=20 As mentioned, the interesting round tower was rebuilt in 1967 but only to t= he height of the roof of the church. There is no belfry as such anymore. Th= e two remaining bells (treble and tenor of the octave - T Mears 1798 and C&= G Mears 1848) disappeared at that time and I would be very interested in an= y information about where they ended up!=20 Stuart Hutchieson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Sun Jun 23 18:35:16 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:35:16 +0100 Subject: Heavitree RC church Message-ID: <3D1606D4.CBA9C5A4@y...> Does anyone know how the big Taylor bell at Heavitree RC church (Exeter) is hung? David From George at d... Sun Jun 23 21:54:03 2002 From: George at d... (George Dawson) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:54:03 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church References: <3D1606D4.CBA9C5A4@y...> Message-ID: <000801c21af8$1c4523e0$719787d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Counterbalanced U shaped headstock with wheel. See attachment GAD ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bryant" To: "Bell Historians" Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church > Does anyone know how the big Taylor bell at Heavitree RC church (Exeter) > is hung? > > David > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 149 bytes Desc: not available URL: From djb122 at y... Sun Jun 23 22:05:42 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:05:42 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church References: <3D1606D4.CBA9C5A4@y...> <000801c21af8$1c4523e0$719787d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <005401c21af9$c1df2200$634b87d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting - it's more or less the same weight as Exeter Cathedral tenor, = but a tone lower. It must be quite thin for an Ab - Liverpool tenor is also= an Ab and is half a ton heavier. David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Dawson=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church Counterbalanced U shaped headstock with wheel. See attachment GAD ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bryant" To: "Bell Historians" Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church > Does anyone know how the big Taylor bell at Heavitree RC church (Exeter= ) > is hung? > > David > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term= s/ > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at m... Mon Jun 24 10:47:52 2002 From: mike at m... (mikechester_uk) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:47:52 -0000 Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church In-Reply-To: <005401c21af9$c1df2200$634b87d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: --- In bellhistorians at y..., "David Bryant" wrote: > Interesting - it's more or less the same weight as Exeter Cathedral tenor, but a tone lower. It must be quite thin for an Ab - Liverpool tenor is also an Ab and is half a ton heavier. Not - quite, Liverpool is only a quarter of a ton heaver, 82cwt as opposed to the 77cwt bell at Heavitree. Heavitree is a quarter of a ton heavier than the Cathedral. Does that fact that the 11th at Exeter is "only" c.41cwt have any bearing on this? (No pun intended!). Is the tenor "heavy" or the 11th light? My rough calculations (based on tenor-1 being around 2/3 of the weight of the tenor) suggest that the 11th should be around 46cwt or that the tenor should be about 61/62cwt. Mike Chester From djb122 at y... Mon Jun 24 12:17:40 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:17:40 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church References: Message-ID: <3D16FFD4.481A16CA@y...> mikechester_uk wrote: > Not - quite, Liverpool is only a quarter of a ton heaver, 82cwt as > opposed to the 77cwt bell at Heavitree. Heavitree is a quarter of a > ton heavier than the Cathedral. Whoops! For some reason I thought it was 73 - I should have checked! > Does that fact that the 11th at Exeter is "only" c.41cwt have any > bearing on this? (No pun intended!). Is the tenor "heavy" or the 11th > light? My rough calculations (based on tenor-1 being around 2/3 of > the weight of the tenor) suggest that the 11th should be around 46cwt > or that the tenor should be about 61/62cwt. It's the tenor that's heavy, compared to the rest. It is interesting to compare the ring with York, a complete Bb Taylor 12. York tenor is actually lower in pitch than Exeter (it's almost A). The 11ths at both are more or less the same weight. The 8th, 9th, and 10th at Exeter are slightly heavier than York, but only by a few cwts. The Exeter 7th is substantially heavier than York (18 cwt in G), and is therefore exceptionally heavy for its note (anyone know of a thicker modern Taylor bell?), and is cast on a heavier scale than even the tenor. The front six and semitones at Exeter are all lighter then York, the trebles by as much as 2 cwt. I believe that when Exeter tenor was cast The cathedral authorities wanted to make sure they had a bell powerful enough to cover the 11th properly (the 11th, by Thomas Purdue, is a very good and powerful bell), and asked for it to be cast this heavy. Therefore the ring is over-tenord rather than under-11thd! I've also heard it said that Redcliffe is over-tenored, but this I do not agree with. The tenor is of the correct note for its weight and is in proportion to the ten other Taylor bells in the ring. It is the three old bells (8, 10, 11) which are light for their notes and consequently light for the rest of the ring. That said, they're pretty good bells, especially the 11th. While on the subject of scales of thickness, it seems to me that Taylor's haven't cast thin-scale bells below B or C. Broadly, there are two weights for Taylor 12s in C - 35 and 40 cwt. 40cwt equates to a 60 cwt Bb (as at York). 35 would equate to about 52½ cwt. Are there any Taylor Bb bells of this weight? I believe the chime at Bradwell in Derbyshire is a 39 cwt B, which is an even thinner scale, equating to a 26 cwt C. Are there any thinner scale modern Taylor bells than this? David From andrew.russel at b... Tue Jun 25 23:28:22 2002 From: andrew.russel at b... (Andrew Russel) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:28:22 +0100 Subject: No subject References: <001c01c20d85$b05272c0$e9a601d5@n2g2r0> <3CFFA6FE.69E2BF1C@y...> Message-ID: <003901c21c97$9e65b420$407b7ad5@n2g2r0> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some family history research has turned up a distant ancestor in the West C= ountry. Chap called Main Swete who had been a Barbados planter but retired = home to Devon. He died in 1735. "Maine Swete was a very ingenious man, he had a blacksmith's shop in the or= chard,=20 he delighted in bell ringing and dressed as a blacksmith took the (....) in= =20 ringing the bells at Totnes. About 1720 he constructed the celebrated Swete= =20 clock 10. 6 by 3.0. which stood in the hall at Traine. It had 37 bells with= =20 hands for tunes." Does anyone know more of Swete or his clock? and did the author mean it cou= ld be used to play tunes? and why 37 bells?=20 Andy Russel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaspland at y... Wed Jun 26 20:35:30 2002 From: aaspland at y... (Andrew Aspland) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:35:30 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Heavitree RC church In-Reply-To: <3D16FFD4.481A16CA@y...> Message-ID: David wrote: >While on the subject of scales of thickness, it seems to me that >Taylor's haven't cast thin-scale bells below B or C. Broadly, there are >two weights for Taylor 12s in C - 35 and 40 cwt. 40cwt equates to a 60 >cwt Bb (as at York). 35 would equate to about 52½ cwt. Are there any >Taylor Bb bells of this weight? I believe the chime at Bradwell in >Derbyshire is a 39 cwt B, which is an even thinner scale, equating to a >26 cwt C. Are there any thinner scale modern Taylor bells than this? Manchester Town Hall is 43cwt in B - does that follow the 35cwt C scale? Before the computer age I did look through Dove to find the lightest tenors of a given key. Unfortunately I have lost the results! Some of the noteable thin bells were: G F# F Croxton Kerrial 9-1-15 E Eb Claybrooke and Tickhill both 13-3-7 D Ewerby 15-0-23 Db C Peterborough 25-2-22 B Bb Can anyone fill in the gaps or find thinner tenors than these? Andrew _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From djb122 at y... Wed Jun 26 21:31:08 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:31:08 +0100 Subject: Thin Bells References: Message-ID: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> Andrew Aspland wrote: > Manchester Town Hall is 43cwt in B - does that follow the 35cwt > C scale? I think so - the 11th at the Town Hall is a 29cwt C#. My additions to Andrew's list in capitals - can anyone provide more information or corrections? David > G WHIXLEY 5-3-3 - PROBABLY A LIGHTER ONE SOMEWHERE? > F# ? > F Croxton Kerrial 9-1-15 > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. CAN ANYONE HELP? > Eb Claybrooke and Tickhill both 13-3-7 NO: PUCKLECHURCH 12-1-13, NORTON FITZWARREN OLD TENOR (SCRAPPED 1993) 12-1-0 > D Ewerby 15-0-23 > Db TRING 17-3-18 > C Peterborough 25-2-22 O > B ESCRICK(?) 34-2-10 > Bb SHERBORNE ABBEY (?) 46-0-5 From mike at m... Thu Jun 27 10:57:21 2002 From: mike at m... (mikechester_uk) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:57:21 -0000 Subject: Thin Bells In-Reply-To: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> Message-ID: > > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. CAN ANYONE HELP? A crude search on Dove shows nothing for Wiltshire of this type. The lightest bell in E I could find was the tenor of the 4 at Laneham, Notts, weighing in at 10-3-4 A pedant would point out that Egloskerry is in E and the tenor weighs only 2-2-24, but, as I am not one, I wont! Mike Chester From matthewhigby at a... Thu Jun 27 11:29:08 2002 From: matthewhigby at a... (matthewhigby at a...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 06:29:08 EDT Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <15e.fd4a18c.2a4c42f4@a...> The 6 at Broad Hinton are 8-3-10 in E - and very good they are too. Gilletts tuned down quite a few old tenors to very low notes, some worked, some didn't. The 6 at Sutton Veny, Wilts 8-2-12 in F are poor and the 6 at Hartpury, Glos 14-1-6 in E flat sound like leather buckets to me. The two bright Gillett trebles at Hartpury are excellent. The Eflat tenors at Claybrooke 13-3-7 and St Michaels, Bath 14-1-9 (tuned by Whitechapel 1998 - are both excellent. Cheers Matthew From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 12:52:14 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:52:14 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: Message-ID: <3D1AFC6E.6696363A@y...> mikechester_uk wrote: > > > > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. > CAN ANYONE HELP? > > A crude search on Dove shows nothing for Wiltshire of this type. The > lightest bell in E I could find was the tenor of the 4 at Laneham, > Notts, weighing in at 10-3-4 I did the same and can't find it - perhaps it's in a nearby county. The annoying thing is that I know I've seen it! > A pedant would point out that Egloskerry is in E and the tenor weighs > only 2-2-24, but, as I am not one, I wont! That's an octave above the E we're interested in though! David From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 12:53:20 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:53:20 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: <15e.fd4a18c.2a4c42f4@a...> Message-ID: <3D1AFCB0.819B6E2@y...> matthewhigby at a... wrote: > The 6 at Broad Hinton are 8-3-10 in E - and very good they are too. > Gilletts That must be it then - I thought it was an eight! David From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 13:03:54 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:03:54 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: <15e.fd4a18c.2a4c42f4@a...> Message-ID: <3D1AFF2A.7DCAC7D8@y...> matthewhigby at a... wrote: > The 6 at Broad Hinton are 8-3-10 in E - and very good they are too. Have you got details of the bells? David From J.Adams at u... Thu Jun 27 13:08:46 2002 From: J.Adams at u... (John Paul Adams) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:08:46 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <200206271208.g5RC8kq15873@s...> David B: >> mikechester_uk wrote: >> > >> > > > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. >> > CAN ANYONE HELP? >> > >> > A crude search on Dove shows nothing for Wiltshire of this type. The >> > lightest bell in E I could find was the tenor of the 4 at Laneham, >> > Notts, weighing in at 10-3-4 >> >> I did the same and can't find it - perhaps it's in a nearby county. The >> annoying thing is that I know I've seen it! I think someone said Broad Hinton, but in the latest Dove update, it has gone from being in E to being in G. Some change! Are the notes in Dove all standardised? Isn't there something different between old pitches and new pitches? Maybe something for Nigel Taylor to write about, he done well with his last letter to the RW. Is Bill H still here to give an explanation? John -- John Paul Adams, Medical School IT Support Section, University College London, London, WC1E 6BT. Work: 020-7679-6867. Email: J.Adams at u... WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/ From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 13:14:07 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:14:07 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: <200206271208.g5RC8kq15873@s...> Message-ID: <3D1B018F.690FB5AB@y...> John Paul Adams wrote: > I think someone said Broad Hinton, but in the latest Dove update, it > has > gone from being in E to being in G. Some change! > > Are the notes in Dove all standardised? Isn't there something > different > between old pitches and new pitches? Maybe something for Nigel Taylor > to > write about, he done well with his last letter to the RW. Is Bill H > still > here to give an explanation? I believe they're a bit hit-and-miss - many are what someone thought they were. Most mistakes have probably been rectified by now, but not all. Oldham are still listed as Db, and Taylor's records show that they're definitely in C. However, this is an understandable one - E to G is a bit more difficult to believe! However, if Matthew's rung there and says they are E I think we can take it as read that they are! And yes - where are you Bill? We haven't heard from you for a while. David From matthewhigby at a... Thu Jun 27 13:35:57 2002 From: matthewhigby at a... (matthewhigby at a...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:35:57 EDT Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <123.12d28a44.2a4c60ad@a...> In a message dated 27/06/2002 13:15:06 GMT Daylight Time, djb122 at y... writes: > if Matthew's rung there and > says they are E I think we can take it as read that they are! > > Ill have to say - all I can remember is that they were a really good resonant ring of 6 - It was a long time ago that I rang there so I would'nt bet on anything! HBW (1929) states the details to be 1 G Mears 1849 4-0-10 2 G Mears 1849 4-0-19 3 G Mears 1849 5-0-24 4 Warner 1877 6-0-0 5 Roger Purdue 1664 8-0-0 6 Roger Purdue 1664 10-0-0 in G. I think Gilletts had a go at them after this - Ill try ang get over there sometime. Cheers Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.greenhough at w... Thu Jun 27 13:44:08 2002 From: j.greenhough at w... (j.greenhough at w...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:44:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells In-Reply-To: <3D1B018F.690FB5AB@y...> Message-ID: Oldham are barely flat of C# according to my pitch-pipe. From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 14:30:49 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:30:49 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: Message-ID: <3D1B1389.B1E9792B@y...> j.greenhough at w... wrote: > Oldham are barely flat of C# according to my pitch-pipe. Michael Wilby checked with Taylor's for the 12s website, and they said definitely C, like Wakefield or Winchester. York are only just Bb - the tenor is almost A. David From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 14:35:15 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:35:15 +0100 Subject: Broad Hinton References: <123.12d28a44.2a4c60ad@a...> Message-ID: <3D1B1493.937634C9@y...> I'd been told before (by Alan Lee of near Taunton, who can assign pitch to bells pretty well) that they were in E. David From dave at d... Thu Jun 27 13:53:42 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:53:42 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: Message-ID: <002701c21dd9$ac04ce20$3bda403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They are right on the border of C and C-sharp; of Taylors' 58" diameter com= plete rings, the sharpest Wakefield 35-1-0 516 C Winchester 35-2-6 518 C Oldham 35-0-4 542 C Westbury 35-0-14 544 C# Truro 33-3-10 544 C# Beverley SM 34-3-12 544 C# Taylors' sharpest complete C# ring is Bedford (578) - which goes to show wh= at a relative thing bell pitches are ! Of course so much depends on the bell itself; Canterbury Cathedral's old te= nor (Mears & Stainbank 1951) was 516 C (32-0-6; 57") and an excellent sound= ing bell; the 11th (pitch not known, but Samuell Knight 1726, 51" 21-3= -2 approximately D) was the worst bell in the ring - and it was dreadful. = Before tuning, Great Dunstan, 70". 67-3-0 before tuning, 1762, Lester, Pack= & Chapman was slightly sharper than the tenor in the bell chamber below it= , which was 35 cwt lighter. And very much thinner. DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: j.greenhough at w...=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: 27 June 2002 13:44 Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Oldham are barely flat of C# according to my pitch-pipe. This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 16:20:39 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:20:39 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: <002701c21dd9$ac04ce20$3bda403e@default> Message-ID: <3D1B2D47.4E95F20@y...> David Cawley wrote: > They are right on the border of C and C-sharp; of Taylors' 58" diameter complete rings, the sharpest > Wakefield 35-1-0 516 C > Winchester 35-2-6 518 C > Oldham 35-0-4 542 C > Westbury 35-0-14 544 C# > Truro 33-3-10 544 C# > Beverley SM 34-3-12 544 C# > Taylors' sharpest complete C# ring is Bedford (578) - which goes to show what a relative thing bell pitches > are ! Bedford are always given as D! Incidentally, the hour bell at Wakefield town hall (Taylor 1880, 54-2-12) is also a C, and I think it's a sharper one than the Cathedral tenor. I heard it strike the hour several times one evening recently when I was stuck there after the Cathedral practice by a broken down car. Unfortunately the Cathedral chimes were out of action. The town hall bell is certainly not very nice sounding, especially when compared to the lovely tenor at the Cathedral. Did the frequencies given above come from Taylor's records? I don't suppose you happen to have the frequencies of the bells at York, do you. My attempts to measure them using a cheap tape player and Bill's Wavanal have not been too successful, although I have established that the tenor is a long way flat of Bb. David From s.ivin at n... Thu Jun 27 17:26:54 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:26:54 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <20020627162654.YBON295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@s> DJB: > Oldham are still listed as Db, and Taylor's records show that > they're definitely in C. The info. I have gives 542 cps for Oldham tenor - this is in fact C + 60c (=Dflat - 40c) and thus nearer D flat than C. SI From michael_wilby at y... Thu Jun 27 17:32:53 2002 From: michael_wilby at y... (=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Wilby?=) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:32:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells In-Reply-To: <3D1B1389.B1E9792B@y...> Message-ID: <20020627163253.69040.qmail@w...> There is also a question of which pitch standard is being used: old philharmonic (C=256Hz) is higher than new concert pitch (A=440Hz). Thus Oldham is definitely a C bell, though will appear only just flat of modern C#. Likewise Towcester and Peterborough (E-flat old concert), and many, many more... Does anyone know when each of the foundries changed to A 440 (obviously, some rings such as Cirencester, are still retuned to C256)?MPAW. --- David Bryant wrote: --------------------------------- j.greenhough at w... wrote: > Oldham are barely flat of C# according to my pitch-pipe. Michael Wilby checked with Taylor's for the 12s website, and they said definitely C, like Wakefield or Winchester. York are only just Bb - the tenor is almost A. David Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Relive the FIFA World Cup goals with exclusive video highlights! http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/fc/en -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.ivin at n... Thu Jun 27 17:36:43 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:36:43 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <20020627163643.YMRH295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@s> > Bedford are always given as D! 578 cps = D - 26 cents > I don't suppose you happen to have the frequencies of the bells at York, do you. 456 cps = B flat - 38 cents. SI From matthewhigby at a... Thu Jun 27 17:45:08 2002 From: matthewhigby at a... (matthewhigby at a...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:45:08 EDT Subject: Odd weights within rings of bells. Message-ID: <185.a3fb34d.2a4c9b14@a...> How about this one for being strange: Easton in Gordano, Som The tenor weighs 18-3-14 in E flat. The 4th weighs 5¾cwt. The treble is over 7cwt. Didn't stop us winning the B&W 6 bell final there last Saturday! Cheers Matthew From s.ivin at n... Thu Jun 27 17:59:47 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:59:47 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells Message-ID: <20020627165946.ZJJA295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@s> MPAW: > There is also a question of which pitch standard is being used: > old philharmonic (C=256Hz) is higher than new concert pitch (A=440Hz). Whatever the names, C256 is in fact _lower_ than A440 (=C261.6). (It is sometimes referred to as 'philosophical pitch' because of the powers of 2 involved.) Relative to C256, Towcester at 650cps would be E + 13 cents. Incidentally it is not always possible to be certain what the A figure is, given the C, since in days gone by it may not be certain what was the interval between A & C. Standardisation - as far as I can see Taylors have never bothered with any exact pitch standard for ringing bells, tho' I suspect carollons are a different matter. SI From bells at k... Thu Jun 27 18:50:15 2002 From: bells at k... (David & Mary Kelly) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:50:15 +0100 Subject: Broad Hinton Message-ID: <002a01c21e03$1b1cc280$2d99fea9@keltek> charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the bells may be at Whitechapel and I also believe that they are be= ing augmented to eight. Dave --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 29-May-02 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewhigby at a... Thu Jun 27 18:54:18 2002 From: matthewhigby at a... (matthewhigby at a...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:54:18 EDT Subject: [Bell Historians] Broad Hinton Message-ID: No - I think thats Broad Blunsdon! I saw them yesterday. I also saw the Little Bredy six - the 3 smallest 1850 bells were destroyed last week. Matthew From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 18:58:37 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:58:37 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells References: <20020627163643.YMRH295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: <001801c21e04$44de0a60$245787d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I don't suppose you happen to have the frequencies of the bells at York, = do you. > 456 cps =3D B flat - 38 cents. Do you have the other bells - I'm just interested in the accuracy of the tu= ning and whether there is any stretch (from listening to them,I'm pretty su= re that there isn't). Also, I don't suppose you happen to have the pitches of any of the 40cwt C = bells - Shrewsbury, Leeds, Buckfast, etc - are they generally flatter than = the thin scale C's. And finally, does anyone have the pitch of the Escrick (ex Birmingham) bell= s prior to and after tuning. I'm told that they were already a flat C, they= 're now in B, but I'm not sure exactly where relative to B - I hardly ever = ring there and haven't been there for almost a year now. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 19:08:16 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:08:16 +0100 Subject: Books Message-ID: <004801c21e05$9f227320$245787d9@oemcomputer> Does anyone know when the 3rd and final part of Chris Dalton's Dorset bells is due to be published? Last time I was in contact with him, about a year ago, he was hoping to publish in in March this year, so evidently there has been a hold up for some reason. While on the subject, does anyone know of any other books to be published in the near future? Anyone know how George Massey's Somserset is going? I've lost touch with him since leaving Somerset. David From s.ivin at n... Thu Jun 27 19:59:30 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:59:30 +0100 Subject: 40cwt Taylor bells Message-ID: <20020627185930.ZJCL4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> > Also, I don't suppose you happen to have the pitches of any of the 40cwt C bells - > Shrewsbury, Leeds, Buckfast, etc - are they generally flatter than the thin scale C's. Wakefield 516 cps Winchester 518 cps - both 58" dia. Waltham Abbey 532 cps - 59" Shrewsbury 520 cps - 60" Pierhead 524 cps Adelaide 518 cps Buckfast 518 cps Leeds 518 cps Inverary 518 cps - all 60.5" dia. Beverley Minster 526 - 61" Dublin St Patrick 520 cps - 62" (Excerpts from JT records) SI From s.ivin at n... Thu Jun 27 20:06:43 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:06:43 +0100 Subject: Bull Ring / Escrick Message-ID: <20020627190643.ZRUW4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Pitch measured when they were in Bham was C-19 cents - 517.5 cps. SI From nickwbowden at f... Thu Jun 27 20:50:16 2002 From: nickwbowden at f... (Nick Bowden) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:50:16 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells References: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> Message-ID: <002f01c21e14$1e2add20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> Here's my brief effort: Ab Guernsey, "Forest" 5-1-24 G Arkesden 5-2-19 F# Ockbrook 5-1-26 F Sutton Veny 8-2-12 E Broad Hinton 8-3-10 Eb Pucklechurch 12-1-14 (Old tenor was 12-0-26) D# Castleton 11-2-0 D Ewerby 15-0-23 Db Derby Cath 19-0-1 C# Tring 17-3-18 C Peterborough S John 25-2-22 (Is this correct? It was 26-2-22 in previous editions.) Otherwise Dunham Massey 25-2-24 B Escrick 34-2-10 Bb Sherborne 46-0-5 ....and Bradwell at 39-1-5 in B and Smalley at 40-1-2 in B are both superb chimes. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:31 PM Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells > Andrew Aspland wrote: > > > Manchester Town Hall is 43cwt in B - does that follow the 35cwt > > C scale? > > I think so - the 11th at the Town Hall is a 29cwt C#. > > My additions to Andrew's list in capitals - can anyone provide more > information or corrections? > > David > > > G WHIXLEY 5-3-3 - PROBABLY A LIGHTER ONE SOMEWHERE? > > F# ? > > F Croxton Kerrial 9-1-15 > > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. CAN ANYONE HELP? > > Eb Claybrooke and Tickhill both 13-3-7 NO: PUCKLECHURCH 12-1-13, NORTON FITZWARREN OLD TENOR (SCRAPPED 1993) 12-1-0 > > D Ewerby 15-0-23 > > Db TRING 17-3-18 > > C Peterborough 25-2-22 O > > B ESCRICK(?) 34-2-10 > > Bb SHERBORNE ABBEY (?) 46-0-5 > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From nickwbowden at f... Thu Jun 27 20:54:11 2002 From: nickwbowden at f... (Nick Bowden) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:54:11 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Broad Hinton References: Message-ID: <004b01c21e14$68a63f20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> A SAD DAY FOR SOME OF US THEN :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Broad Hinton > No - I think thats Broad Blunsdon! > > I saw them yesterday. I also saw the Little Bredy six - the 3 smallest 1850 > bells were destroyed last week. > > Matthew > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 22:48:33 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:48:33 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells References: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> <002f01c21e14$1e2add20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <005401c21e24$6370fbc0$504e87d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick Bowden wrote: > Here's my brief effort: Aren't Db and C#, D# and Eb, etc, the same as far as we're concerned? Altho= ugh they could be used to indicate which note they're closest to, in actual= fact they seem to be used arbitrarily and interchangeably as far as bells = are concerned, so is it really legitimate to distinguish between them? David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 23:06:23 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:06:23 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] 40cwt Taylor bells References: <20020627185930.ZJCL4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: <007301c21e27$0795a280$504e87d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen Ivin wrote: > Wakefield 516 cps > Winchester 518 cps - both 58" dia. Etc. Very interesting. How do the D bells compare for diameter / frequency; for = instance Lincoln or the chime at York with Lichfield? Are the frequencies a= gain very similar despite the weight difference? David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Thu Jun 27 23:09:09 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:09:09 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] 40cwt Taylor bells References: <20020627185930.ZJCL4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> <007301c21e27$0795a280$504e87d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <008101c21e27$43db5280$504e87d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clicked send before I intended! How about the Bb bells, of which there are few - I believe Exeter is sharpe= r than York, despite being 13 cwt heavier. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at d... Thu Jun 27 20:03:04 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:04 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells References: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> <002f01c21e14$1e2add20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <003c01c21e0d$44d7d9c0$aeeb403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to take thin bells into their third day....Lord Grimthorpe would have = been horrified; not least because so many of the rings dicussed yesterday a= re excellent !=20=20 DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Bowden=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: 27 June 2002 20:50 Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells Here's my brief effort: Ab Guernsey, "Forest" 5-1-24 G Arkesden 5-2-19 F# Ockbrook 5-1-26 F Sutton Veny 8-2-12 E Broad Hinton 8-3-10 Eb Pucklechurch 12-1-14 (Old tenor was 12-0-26) D# Castleton 11-2-0 D Ewerby 15-0-23 Db Derby Cath 19-0-1 C# Tring 17-3-18 C Peterborough S John 25-2-22 (Is this correct? It was 26-2-22 in previo= us editions.) Otherwise Dunham Massey 25-2-24 B Escrick 34-2-10 Bb Sherborne 46-0-5 ....and Bradwell at 39-1-5 in B and Smalley at 40-1-2 in B are both super= b chimes. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:31 PM Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells > Andrew Aspland wrote: > > > Manchester Town Hall is 43cwt in B - does that follow the 35cwt > > C scale? > > I think so - the 11th at the Town Hall is a 29cwt C#. > > My additions to Andrew's list in capitals - can anyone provide more > information or corrections? > > David > > > G WHIXLEY 5-3-3 - PROBABLY A LIGHTER ONE SOMEWHERE? > > F# ? > > F Croxton Kerrial 9-1-15 > > E AN 8 CWT 8 in WILTSHIRE, I THINK - I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME. CAN ANYONE HELP? > > Eb Claybrooke and Tickhill both 13-3-7 NO: PUCKLECHURCH 12-1-13, NORT= ON FITZWARREN OLD TENOR (SCRAPPED 1993) 12-1-0 > > D Ewerby 15-0-23 > > Db TRING 17-3-18 > > C Peterborough 25-2-22 O > > B ESCRICK(?) 34-2-10 > > Bb SHERBORNE ABBEY (?) 46-0-5 > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term= s/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael_wilby at y... Fri Jun 28 10:08:18 2002 From: michael_wilby at y... (michael_wilby) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:08:18 -0000 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Re: Thin Bells In-Reply-To: <20020627165946.ZJJA295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: SI > Whatever the names, C256 is in fact _lower_ than A440 (=C261.6). (It is sometimes > referred to as 'philosophical pitch' because of the powers of 2 involved.) My mistake - yes that is obviously the case. I had taken the "fact" on trust without looking at it properly. This does put a different complexion on what I had previously thought! > Relative to C256, Towcester at 650cps would be E + 13 cents. Without reaching for a calculator, what is the change in key reflected by the shift in pitch from "old" to "new"? ...and does this offer an explanation for Jim Phillips' frequent outbursts about "Taylor pre-war D-flats tuned with forks being different to post war C-sharps tuned with machines better suited at making doughnuts", or whatever it is... :-) When being transferred to Peterborough Cathedral, St John-the-Divine bells (Taylor 1902) were described by Foundry Focus (RW) as being E- flat old concert pitch. Is this correct? Also, Newport Cathedral (originally Taylor 1913) are often quoted as being 21-2-20 in D - is this stricly-speaking E-flat old concert too? MPAW From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 10:49:10 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:49:10 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Thin Bells References: <3D1A248C.D219440A@y...> <002f01c21e14$1e2add20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> <003c01c21e0d$44d7d9c0$aeeb403e@default> Message-ID: <004201c21e89$13014b80$f7dd193e@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Cawley wrote: > Just to take thin bells into their third day....Lord Grimthorpe would hav= e been horrified; not least because so many of the rings=20 > dicussed yesterday are excellent !=20=20 Yes - and a number of equally excellent rings (Worcester, Burton, Ossett, e= tc) succeeded rings cast to his design! David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at m... Fri Jun 28 11:45:18 2002 From: mike at m... (mikechester_uk) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:45:18 -0000 Subject: Grimethorpe bells In-Reply-To: <004201c21e89$13014b80$f7dd193e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: > Yes - and a number of equally excellent rings (Worcester, .......... Erm - not quite - to quote "The bells are hung in the central tower inside a huge pitched pine 'wigwam', installed when the bells were recast by Taylors in 1868-9 to the specifications of Lord Grimthorpe. These old bells were cast to ridiculous proportions, the tenor being about 55cwt in D. Their tone was so poor, that Taylors recast the lot in 1928" (From Church Bells of Worcestershire) Mike From J.Adams at u... Fri Jun 28 12:19:07 2002 From: J.Adams at u... (John Paul Adams) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:19:07 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Books Message-ID: <200206281119.g5SBJ8h24504@s...> David B: >> While on the subject, does anyone know of any other books to be published in >> the near future? Anyone know how George Massey's Somserset is going? I've >> lost touch with him since leaving Somerset. David Sloman is finishing off his research for the Bells of Essex now that he has retired. No idea of publication date. John -- John Paul Adams, Medical School IT Support Section, University College London, London, WC1E 6BT. Work: 020-7679-6867. Email: J.Adams at u... WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/ From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 12:27:13 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:27:13 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Grimethorpe bells References: Message-ID: <3D1C4811.84B22D37@y...> mikechester_uk wrote: > > > Yes - and a number of equally excellent rings (Worcester, .......... > > Erm - not quite - to quote No - what I meant was that the Grimthorpe bells at Worcester were so crap that they've been recast by Taylor's, as have Ossett and Burton! The back seven at Ossett are also in the old frame. I've heard a rumour that when these recastings happened Taylor's offered a substantial discount because they were so embarassed about them! I've also heard that they offered a similar discount to Mirfield, but they declined to recast - are they the heaviest Grimthorpe ring still remaining? I really do hope that this doesn't make them listable! David From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 12:44:22 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:44:22 +0100 Subject: photography Message-ID: <3D1C4C16.4528F0D6@y...> A sort of bell-related query which sometone might be able to answer! In the scrap books at the Minster we have quite a lot of good photos of the Minster and other bells in York at various times during hanging, etc. As they're glued in it isn't really practical to scan them, so I've tried photographing them, with varying success. I have a fully manual SLR camera. Can anyone give me any tips? David From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 12:56:56 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:56:56 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Bull Ring / Escrick References: <20020627190643.ZRUW4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: <3D1C4F08.76CD9DCD@y...> s.ivin at n... wrote: > Pitch measured when they were in Bham was C-19 cents - 517.5 cps. Don't suppose anyone has any photos of them in the tower at Brum or in storage at Taylor's? They're so squeezed in at Escrick that it's going to be difficult to get any decent photos. David From DrLove at s... Fri Jun 28 14:22:19 2002 From: DrLove at s... (LOVE, Dickon) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:22:19 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] photography Message-ID: > As they're glued in it isn't really practical to scan them... An alternative to photography is to use a hand held scanner, often good for old books that could have their spines damaged on a flat bed scanner. DrL ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 14:25:26 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:25:26 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] photography References: Message-ID: <3D1C63C6.2A3B16AC@y...> "LOVE, Dickon" wrote: > > > As they're glued in it isn't really practical to scan them... > > An alternative to photography is to use a hand held scanner, often > good for > old books that could have their spines damaged on a flat bed scanner. Can't afford one at the moment, hence attempts to use the camera! David From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 14:32:33 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:32:33 +0100 Subject: Query from RW Message-ID: <3D1C6571.EB6D66A2@y...> For those of you who haven't seen this weeks RW, there is an interesting query from Jon Sygrave, a Museum of London Archeologist. Apparently excavations in Aldgate have revealed a late 14th/early 15th century bellfoundry, quite likely the precursor of Whitechapel. He requests anyone knowledgeable about bellfounding in this area to provide information. Particularly, he asks what heppened to George Elphick's papers, as Elphick had researched the early history of bellfounding in the area. Can anyone provide any information? David From s.ivin at n... Fri Jun 28 16:50:54 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:50:54 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Grim[e]thorpe bells Message-ID: <20020628155054.IMSM4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@s> > I've heard a rumour that when these recastings happened Taylor's offered > a substantial discount ISTR the framed details of the bells at Far Headingly is explicit that the bells were recast at the expense of JT & Co. (Originally 18cwt in G). SI From s.ivin at n... Fri Jun 28 17:00:05 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:00:05 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Bull Ring / Escrick Message-ID: <20020628160004.IVHP4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@s> I suspect the 9th is the only bell ever to have a pound-sign in the inscription! SI From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 17:37:24 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:37:24 +0100 Subject: Wakefield Message-ID: <004401c21ec7$9d3c5fe0$994787d9@oemcomputer> As we've just been discussing Taylor thin-scale rings, I thought people might be interested to see some photos of Wakefield- I've just had some developed which I took a few weeks ago. I'll put some of the front end bells with the other photos of Taylor trebles on the group home page, and I'm forwarding these and several others to Michael Wilby for inclusion on the 12s website. David From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 18:25:55 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:25:55 +0100 Subject: Re (2): [Bell Historians] Bull Ring / Escrick References: <20020628160004.IVHP4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: <007e01c21ec8$df618d40$994787d9@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve Ivin wrote: > I suspect the 9th is the only bell ever to have a pound-sign in the inscr= iption! Has it? What's it say? David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George at d... Fri Jun 28 18:55:09 2002 From: George at d... (George Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:55:09 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Books References: <200206281119.g5SBJ8h24504@s...> Message-ID: <001f01c21ecc$f1cb7640$7de287d9@oemcomputer> Time in Rutland just published Ch Bells of Breconshire arrived in the post today GAD ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Paul Adams" To: Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Books > David B: > > >> While on the subject, does anyone know of any other books to be published in > >> the near future? Anyone know how George Massey's Somserset is going? I've > >> lost touch with him since leaving Somerset. > > David Sloman is finishing off his research for the Bells of Essex now that > he has retired. No idea of publication date. > > John > > -- > John Paul Adams, Medical School IT Support Section, > University College London, London, WC1E 6BT. > Work: 020-7679-6867. Email: J.Adams at u... > WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/ > > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From George at d... Fri Jun 28 18:56:27 2002 From: George at d... (George Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:56:27 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Query from RW References: <3D1C6571.EB6D66A2@y...> Message-ID: <002f01c21ecd$20f8cb20$7de287d9@oemcomputer> I think it all went to the Pitt Rivers Museum , Oxford GAD ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bryant" To: "Bell Historians" Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: [Bell Historians] Query from RW > For those of you who haven't seen this weeks RW, there is an interesting > query from Jon Sygrave, a Museum of London Archeologist. Apparently > excavations in Aldgate have revealed a late 14th/early 15th century > bellfoundry, quite likely the precursor of Whitechapel. He requests > anyone knowledgeable about bellfounding in this area to provide > information. Particularly, he asks what heppened to George Elphick's > papers, as Elphick had researched the early history of bellfounding in > the area. > > Can anyone provide any information? > > David > > > This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To unsubscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From kenwebb at r... Fri Jun 28 19:12:07 2002 From: kenwebb at r... (Ken Webb) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:12:07 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Broad Hinton References: <004b01c21e14$68a63f20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <004e01c21ecf$51723d20$1e0b86d9@default> Broad Hinton bells were tuned & hung in a new metal frame with all new fittings by Taylors in 1930. This is per the church guide, a Taylors quote for Hilmarton dated 1937 stating that they carried out work at Broad Hinton in 1930 & my visit to the bellchamber 25 years ago (Taylor frame & fittings). Will before & after info be in the Taylor records? Ken From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 20:23:24 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:23:24 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Broad Hinton References: <004b01c21e14$68a63f20$4b927ed4@oemcomputer> <004e01c21ecf$51723d20$1e0b86d9@default> Message-ID: <3D1CB7AC.F71C1773@y...> Ken Webb wrote: > Will before & after info be in the Taylor records? I should think so - anyone with access fancy looking up the frequency of the tenor? David From s.ivin at n... Fri Jun 28 21:17:02 2002 From: s.ivin at n... (s.ivin at n...) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:17:02 +0100 Subject: Re (3): [Bell Historians] Bull Ring / Escrick Message-ID: <20020628201702.JRJY4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> The Bull Ring (recast) ninth proudly refers to GBP 100,000 which I think was the result of a bit of fund-raising by the egregious Canon Bryan Green. SI From djb122 at y... Fri Jun 28 21:30:29 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:30:29 +0100 Subject: Re (3): [Bell Historians] Bull Ring / Escrick References: <20020628201702.JRJY4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@s> Message-ID: <3D1CC765.8811AA75@y...> s.ivin at n... wrote: > The Bull Ring (recast) ninth proudly refers to GBP 100,000 which I > think > was the result of a bit of fund-raising by the egregious Canon Bryan > Green. The only photo of it that I've managed to find is a really crap one in a 1976 RW, which is so unclear that it could be pretty much any bell! David From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 22:33:12 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:33:12 -0000 Subject: Thin / light bells and the tenor notes in Dove Message-ID: In response to various enquiries after my health - I am still here, and still reading. Excuses for not posting messages recently are: * I didn't have anything useful / helpful to say * I have been rather busy at work, e.g. just got back from a conference in Copenhagen (with not a bell heard!) * As some people already know, I have been accepted by the OU to work part-time for a PhD in bell acoustics (what else?). I have been rather buried in some hard theoretical work to do with clappering, the effect of buildings on bell sound etc. Anyone interested had better contact me off-line as it's nothing to do with history. My contribution to the 'lightest bell for its note' discussion was going to be Castleton - 11-2-0 in E (633Hz), but I see they have been well beaten by other contenders! As regards the notes given in Dove, I have always assumed that given the different methods of pitch estimation, changes in tuning over the years, etc. that they could not be relied on as anything other than a vague indication of the note. It might be a bit cavalier, or unfair, but when I analyse a peal of bells I don't even bother comparing the tenor nominal to Dove's note for the bell. I do know of one instance where, after retuning, the tenor nominal went DOWN and the note in Dove went UP! 'Nuff said. Bill H From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 22:38:54 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:38:54 -0000 Subject: The bells at York Minster Message-ID: David Bryant refers to some difficulty he has been having analysing the tuning of York Minster using wavanal - he has previously mentioned this to me in private emails. Given the number of users of wavanal - about a thousand copies downloaded in 12 months - and the large volume of emails I get about its (successful) use, I can only assume that there is something odd, or even wrong, about the York bells. David, next time I'm at Whitechapel shall I suggest they come up to York to see if anything can be done with them? Bill H PS :-) just in case From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 22:47:34 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:47:34 -0000 Subject: Use of pitch standards by foundries Message-ID: Michael Wilby asks when the foundries adopted pitch standards. Though I can't answer this question directly, I can give two pieces of evidence. I understand that at Whitechapel it was common practice a hunderd years ago to tune bells by filing up a set of tuning forks to the flattest bell in the peal after casting and then tuning the bells to these forks. I have seen at Taylors a set of books, copied out I think by Paul Taylor, giving the correct frequencies for equal tempered intervals based on a wide range of base frequencies separated by one or two Hz. This suggests that in both cases they tuned bells as they found them rather than aiming for particular absolute frequencies. Steve Ivin suggests that carillons might be tuned to some absolute pitch standard. I have not analysed enough carillons to make any meaningful comment, but note that most (modern) carillons are transposing instruments, where the nominal names given to the notes on the keyboard is usually different to the actual pitch of the bells. Bill H From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 22:59:34 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:59:34 -0000 Subject: Lord Grimthorpe and thick bells Message-ID: David Cawley makes some interesting observations on the thick designs of Lord Grimthorpe. I'm about to make an obvious point, but no-one has made it yet, so here goes. A dominant characteristic of 19th century bells which are either over or underweight compared with the norm is that they are not true- harmonic. Bells I have looked at which are excessively thin or thick usually have partials all over the place and as a result have a most unfortunate sound. This can be seen time and time again just between the trebles and tenors of 19th century peals. I have not analysed any ringing bells with Grimthorpe profiles (I guess I should go to Mirfield) but feel fairly safe in assuming what I would find. The skill which Taylors and Gillets and finally Whitechapel learned, was to cast bells to different profiles and thicknesses while keeping them true-harmonic. (As an aside, because Continental founders never had the problem of having to produce heavy trebles to ring with tenors, they never had this problem in the first place). When the founders produce true-harmonic bells with different profiles, there is still a difference in the sound - thin bells produce a sound I call the 'tin-can' effect. However, because the bells are true harmonic we tend not to complain, and perhaps some people even prefer it. Bill H From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 23:07:41 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:07:41 -0000 Subject: Taylors and the use of tuning forks Message-ID: Michael Wilby quotes Jim Phillips' suggestion of some months ago (on ringing chat) that bells tuned with tuning forks sound better than those tuned with 'electronic instruments' and cites the example of pre- and post-second world war Taylors. Of course, one big change that Taylors made, round about the 1930s, was to move from just to equal tempered tierces. I guess this might have something to do with it. I am told by experienced and knowledgeable carilloneurs that instruments with equal and just tierces are quite different in character. By the way, there has been some discussion of Nigel Taylor's RW article on the use of temperaments in bell tuning. Is anyone on this list able to distinguish between true-harmonic rings tuned equal, just etc. without taking measurements? (Be honest, because I might ask to put your auditory skills to the test!) Bill H From bill at h... Fri Jun 28 23:09:22 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:09:22 -0000 Subject: London bellfounders Message-ID: Re the discussion about the finding of the remains of a bell-foundry in London. Stahlschmidt is a useful reference, I have a copy if anyone wants stuff looked up. Bill H From dave at d... Fri Jun 28 14:39:38 2002 From: dave at d... (D Cawley) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:39:38 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] London bellfounders References: Message-ID: <002301c21ea9$40cedbc0$29d3403e@default> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. Re Stahlschmidt. "Surrey Bells & London Bell Founders" is best read in = conjunction - if you can afford it - with "The Church Bells of Kent". Stah= lschmidt clearly made some progress in the three years 1884-87. Both shou= ld be read in conjunction with Tyssen's "Jubilee" paper (1915) in the Proc = Sussex Arch Soc which is fairly easily and economically obtainable and shed= s as good deal of light on 15th-century founders; all very well brought up-= to-date by George Elphick in Sussex Bells and Belfries which as a working t= ool is still difficult to better; though as David said, we wait for Dorset = iii -with baited breath.=20=20=20=20 2. Meanwhile Time in Rutland (for details ring the County Museum in Oakham)= is quite a remarkable and beautifully produced book; the first I know to d= eal with bells and clocks in one volume together. John Eisel's Breconshire= out to-day is a predictably competent work and excellent value for =A314.9= 5. 3. On Grimthorpe rings on which Bill hasn't rung: is he excluding St Paul's= , over which of course Taylor and Denison had a battle (the lawyer wanted t= he tenor to be 3 tons in C - or was it Db ? - so JWT made a deliberate mist= ake. The unique thunder of St Paul's always makes me think that an intervie= w with Grimthorpe must have been like that ! Quasi-Grimthorpe perhaps ? SJI is quite right about Headingly. E. D. Taylor paid personally for t= he recasting, but excused his father the old bells, "the designs were not h= is choice or responsibility". The parish still paid for the rehang. DLC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: oakcroft13=20 To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: 28 June 2002 23:09 Subject: [Bell Historians] London bellfounders Re the discussion about the finding of the remains of a bell-foundry=20 in London. Stahlschmidt is a useful reference, I have a copy if=20 anyone wants stuff looked up. Bill H This message was sent to you via the Bell Historians' Mailing List. To un= subscribe from the list send an email to bellhistorians-unsubscribe at yahoogr= oups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djb122 at y... Sat Jun 29 09:09:50 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:09:50 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] The bells at York Minster References: Message-ID: <001101c21f44$5a0e02a0$01d3193e@oemcomputer> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill wrote: > Given the number of users of wavanal - about a thousand copies=20 > downloaded in 12 months - and the large volume of emails I get about=20 > its (successful) use, I can only assume that there is something odd,=20 > or even wrong, about the York bells. Um - No. I think it's just me. I think the main prblem is a crap tape recor= der, and the fact that the bells are actually quite loud in most places whe= re I've tried recording them and this overloads the recorder! > David, next time I'm at Whitechapel shall I suggest they come up to=20 > York to see if anything can be done with them? Definitely not!!!!! David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at h... Sat Jun 29 09:41:08 2002 From: bill at h... (oakcroft13) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 08:41:08 -0000 Subject: St Paul's Cathedral Message-ID: David Cawley: > On Grimthorpe rings on which Bill hasn't rung: > is he excluding St Paul's, over which of course > Taylor and Denison had a battle Quoting from W. T. Cook's "The Bells of St Paul's", 2nd edition 1984: Sir Edmund's specfication for the new ring at St. Paul's was for twelve bells with a tenor of three tons in the key of D flat. However, Mr. Taylor knew that a ring of twelve bells of that weight would be much too heavy for such a key, so he purposely 'made a mistake', as he afterwards described it, and cast them in the key of B flat. Apparently Sir Edmund was very angry about this, and announced that "the bells were not according to contract, and would be thrown back on the founder's hands". However, common sense and reason prevailed, and the ring of bells was accepted in its present form. I don't think of St Paul's as a 'Grimthorpe' ring for this reason, but rather as a grand post-Grimthorpe experiment, beginning the process of design evolution that had such dramatic results 20 years later. St Paul's are let down by the trebles, but that is another story. Bill H From c.j.pickford at t... Sat Jun 29 10:28:09 2002 From: c.j.pickford at t... (Chris Pickford) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:28:09 +0100 Subject: Books References: <200206281119.g5SBJ8h24504@s...> <001f01c21ecc$f1cb7640$7de287d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <006601c21f50$e28f92e0$380a78d5@LocalHost> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since the current state of "work in progress" on books is being talked abou= t, folk might like to know that I'm working with some determination on thre= e publication projects: The Bowell CD-ROM - a catalogue and abstract of the Bowell foundry records,= including images and text files. Almost ready to roll, but I'm hoping to = explore a further source of photographs before publishing it. Birmingham: Work on a publication of a book on "Bells in and around Birmin= gham" - with slightly elastic boundaries to the area to be covered - is now= well in hand. It won't fit in Warwickshire, so I'm planning to issue it s= eparately Warwickshire: My 1986 "near miss" publication is being word-processed and e= dited into a more suitable form for publication. Actively ongoing Expressions of interest for these would be welcomed Chris Pickford 15 Golding Road, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN13 3NL Tel: 01732-456147 or (mobile) 07811-453525 E-mail: c.j.pickford at t... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.j.pickford at t... Sat Jun 29 10:34:55 2002 From: c.j.pickford at t... (Chris Pickford) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:34:55 +0100 Subject: Tenor notes in Dove References: Message-ID: <006701c21f50$e3ee86a0$380a78d5@LocalHost> charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not one to belittle Ron Dove - indeed, in hindsight and with the curren= t offerings for comparison Ron's achievement seems all the more remarkable = - but Bill is right to point out that the tenor notes come from a range of = sources of varying reliability. Ron checked the tenor note against his tuning forks when he rang at a new t= ower. But just occasionally he forgot, and I remember one occasion when we= were about half a mile from the church he said "Oh bother (or similar), I = forgot to take the note of the tenor". Geoff Armitage then sang the tenor = note (or what he thought it was) with a loud and bellowing "LAAAAAAAAaaaaaa= aaa" and Ron pitched it with his fork. Chris P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin at p... Sat Jun 29 21:05:34 2002 From: colin at p... (Colin Turner) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:05:34 +0100 Subject: [Bell Historians] Re: Tenor notes in Dove In-Reply-To: <006701c21f50$e3ee86a0$380a78d5@LocalHost> References: <006701c21f50$e3ee86a0$380a78d5@LocalHost> Message-ID: <$6c17cAOMhH9Iw47@p...> > Geoff Armitage loud and bellowing Surely not! -- Colin From djb122 at y... Sun Jun 30 01:26:30 2002 From: djb122 at y... (David Bryant) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 01:26:30 +0100 Subject: Lowgate, Hull Message-ID: <3D1E5036.EEDE976A@y...> Went to the dedication at St Mary, Lowgate, Hull, this afternoon - largely because I'd been roped into a quarter of what was supposed to be LB Max at Holy Trinity across the road, which ended up as LB Royal, anyway, to get to the point the Lowgate bells (details in this week's RW) have been rehung using many of the old fittings (including the Mark I cast iron Whitechapel headstocks) in a new cast iron frame built by Fred Pembleton, laid out so that two more bells could be added. The peculiarity of the frame is that it is anti-clockwise, as requested by the ringers because the previous frame had been. The bells weren't tuned, and they are a quite pleasant sounding old style six, notwithstanding that the treble is a little flat. The local ringers are to be congratulated on a very good job, which I know they put a lot of effort into. David