[Bell Historians] Re: St John's Church Hanley

[mapmdad]

Sorry not to have posted until now on this topic. As the recently 
appointed secreatary of Lichfield diocese redundant churches uses 
committee (as well as parish priest of two parishes, one of which has 
a ring of six bells) I have picked up a veritable can of worms with 
Hanley.

Our local ringers association have commissioned a report from an 
independent consultant (Adrian Dempster). We spent a happy hour 
(actually it was blowing a gale) at the top of the tower last Tuesday 
examining the bells and the frame. I'm awaiting the report.

Some of you have raised the bigger question of the future of the 
building. I am working with the redundant churches committee at the 
church commissioners, and have also involved the local authority 
conservation architect should listed building alteration or 
demolition be necessary. Speaking purely personally I think that to 
demolish would be a shame. Saint john's is not a beautiful building, 
but it has the architectural features noted by others here, and it is 
a good building right in the city centre. However, the final decision 
lies elsewhere, and this building cannot carry on as it is. 

One pressing issue, irrespective of the future of the building, is to 
safeguard what i am told is a very good peal of bells. I am grateful 
for the help of the local bellringers association and for the 
intervention of the keltec trust. I am open to suggestions and to 
donations towards the cost of the work. Please accept that i am new 
to this situation. Rather than trying to second guess the diocese, or 
speculate on procedural matters, I will value your support and 
advice. 

Fr Richrd Grigson
  
--- In bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com, "Peter Rivet" <peter at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Controls over the demolition of redundant church buildings raise 
interesting
> issues and I must admit that I had to look up the answer to David's
> question.
> 
> It is set out in the government advice note PPG15 (Planning Policy
> Guidance - Planning & the Historic Environment).  Paragraph 8.15 
says that
> in the case of Church of England churches, partly or totally 
demolishing a
> church in pursuance of a Pastoral Measure is still exempt from 
listed
> building control.  However the Church Commissioners have agreed 
that where
> they want to demolish a listed church in these circumstances they 
will ask
> the Secretary or State if he wishes to hold a non-statutory public 
inquiry
> where English Heritage, the local authority or any of the 
recognised amenity
> bodies put forward reasoned objections.  Interestingly this doesn't 
apply to
> places of worship of any other denomination - the view taken by the 
Courts
> is that a building cannot be considered to be in use as a place of 
worship
> if it is totally demolished, so they would need consent to knock it 
down if
> it's listed.
> 
> But paragraph 8.17 of PPG15 goes on to say that when a Church of 
England
> building is no longer in regular ecclesiastical use, it is fully 
subject to
> the normal listed building controls.  This applies once the 
declaration of
> redundancy under the Pastoral Measure comes into operation.  The 
same also
> applies to those churches vested in the Churches Conservation 
Trust, even
> though church services are held in most of them on an occasional 
basis.  I
> have looked up English Heritage's listing description for St John's 
Hanley
> and it describes it as "now disused" so I would have thought that 
it is
> fairly clear that it is now within the remit of the local planning
> authority.
> 
> The reason that St Johns is listed grade II* is because it uses 
cast iron
> structural and decorative components, notably the gallery columns, 
the
> window frames and the castellations.  The church was built in 1788-
90.  It
> is thought that these components are some of the earliest to have 
been used
> in any type of building in Britain, only those at St James 
Liverpool of
> 1774-5 being identified as earlier.
> 
> Contrary to what I expected the listing description does mention 
the bells,
> which is unusual in the case of twentieth century ones:  "Bell 
chamber with
> peal of 10 bells, the original peal of 8 bells cast by Edward 
Arnold of
> Leicester and installed in 1791, supplemented by two additions in 
1891, and
> all re-cast and rehung from a contemporary bellframe in 1923".
> 
> Peter Rivet
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David Bryant
>   Sent: 14 March 2007 21:33
>   To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] Re: St John's Church Hanley
> 
> 
>   "In reply to the comment by Giles Blundell - in fact it's the 
other way
>   round.  Ecclesiastical exemption means that the Church of 
England, the
> Roman
>   Catholic Church and a few other denominations which are 
considered to have
>   adequate procedures in place for dealing with alterations to 
places of
>   worship don't need to apply for Listed Building Consent.  This 
means that
>   the local planning authority doesn't have to get involved in 
fonts, bells
>   and other things that require a Faculty.  But churches still have 
to apply
>   for planning permission for external works, including alterations,
>   extensions and access ramps."
> 
>   But as I understand it, the faculty procedure still applies, 
rather than
>   secular planning controls, under certain circumstances if the 
building is
> no
>   longer used as a church but still owned by the diocese - hence my 
question
>   about whether it has been deconsecrated.
> 
>   David
> 
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