From andrew.aspland at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr  9 12:28:45 2020
From: andrew.aspland at yahoo.co.uk (andrew aspland)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:28:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] G&J bells
References: <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981@mail.yahoo.com>

Anyone have details of the 1911 peal at Heywood, the 1910 back 2 at Oakham and/or the 1923 eight at Bowden. Weights, notes diameters etc.YoursAndrew

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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From nigelsdtaylor at outlook.com  Thu Apr  9 13:09:59 2020
From: nigelsdtaylor at outlook.com (Nigel Taylor)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:09:59 +0000
Subject: [Bell Historians] G&J bells
In-Reply-To: <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981.ref@mail.yahoo.com>,
 <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DB7PR03MB4713A009619767336FFB8D09BFC10@DB7PR03MB4713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

I have the details of Oakham back 2. Will look them up when I have finished today's gardening!

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of andrew aspland via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:28:45 PM
To: Bell Historians Mailing List <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Cc: andrew aspland <andrew.aspland at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Bell Historians] G&J bells

Anyone have details of the 1911 peal at Heywood, the 1910 back 2 at Oakham and/or the 1923 eight at Bowden. Weights, notes diameters etc.
Yours
Andrew

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.onelink.me%2F107872968%3Fpid%3DInProduct%26c%3DGlobal_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers%26af_wl%3Dym%26af_sub1%3DInternal%26af_sub2%3DGlobal_YGrowth%26af_sub3%3DEmailSignature&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5271a9bfdb3f4a499af108d7dc7e7ed9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637220308155556451&sdata=XjRnWd7iOcoQldmxKetVncwpM0ErPAPzie3Z4lsqYIU%3D&reserved=0>
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From aaspland at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr  9 13:19:14 2020
From: aaspland at yahoo.co.uk (aaspland at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:19:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] G&J bells
In-Reply-To: <DB7PR03MB4713A009619767336FFB8D09BFC10@DB7PR03MB4713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1870948958.5238787.1586431725981@mail.yahoo.com>
 <DB7PR03MB4713A009619767336FFB8D09BFC10@DB7PR03MB4713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2066879337.5319096.1586434754960@mail.yahoo.com>

Found the Heywood details in CB Lancs.A

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 13:12, Nigel Taylor<nigelsdtaylor at outlook.com> wrote:   _______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
  
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From mikechester at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 11 09:26:27 2020
From: mikechester at hotmail.com (Mike Chester)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 08:26:27 +0000
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
Message-ID: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Can anyone supply me with details of the bells for the clock chimes at:

Baker & Sons, Gloucester - on the outside of the building, struck by figures.  All I know is that it was installed in 1904, and that the hour bell is not the expected note!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GqynS9VOKA

and

Glusburn Institute - installed in 1911 for the coronation of George V

Many thanks

Mike

[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>     Virus-free. www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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From c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com  Sat Apr 11 09:45:04 2020
From: c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com (Chris Pickford)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 09:45:04 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <0af401d60fdd$7f40f1c0$7dc2d540$@btinternet.com>

For the Gloucester clock, all I can add is that I have a 1960s colour
postcard of it and the caption says:

 

The Southgate Clock was built in 1904, with a set of five figures depicting
England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales with Father Time in the centre who
chimes the hour. The whole clock was made by Messrs. Niehus Bros. of
Bristol, and the 5 bells together weigh about 2 cwt.

 

Chris Pickford

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From david at ringing.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr 11 14:02:16 2020
From: david at ringing.demon.co.uk (David Bagley)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:02:16 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <0af401d60fdd$7f40f1c0$7dc2d540$@btinternet.com>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <0af401d60fdd$7f40f1c0$7dc2d540$@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <D4AA76DB7D874064885F14D8950682FD@David>

Whilst on the subject of Gloucester, does anybody know anything about the small chime of 12 which used to be in the Eastgate Shopping Centre? I remember seeing them hung on a wall many moons ago, and they used to be listed in Dove as a chime.

I did try to make enquiries a while back and was told that the bells were in storage.

David





From: Chris Pickford via Bell-historians 
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:45 AM
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List' 
Cc: Chris Pickford 
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries

For the Gloucester clock, all I can add is that I have a 1960s colour postcard of it and the caption says:

 

The Southgate Clock was built in 1904, with a set of five figures depicting England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales with Father Time in the centre who chimes the hour. The whole clock was made by Messrs. Niehus Bros. of Bristol, and the 5 bells together weigh about 2 cwt.

 

Chris Pickford



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From csz_stl at swbell.net  Sat Apr 11 15:21:06 2020
From: csz_stl at swbell.net (Carl S Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:21:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <D4AA76DB7D874064885F14D8950682FD@David>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <0af401d60fdd$7f40f1c0$7dc2d540$@btinternet.com>
 <D4AA76DB7D874064885F14D8950682FD@David>
Message-ID: <1745079729.1627045.1586614866736@mail.yahoo.com>

The bells came from Petit & Fritsen, and they were installed in 1973.  From what I can see in Google Streetview, the building has been redeveloped leaving no place for the bells, so "in storage" sounds reasonable.

Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist 
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
 - 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers 
Tel. +1(314)821-8437 
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org
 * Avocation: tower bells
 * Recreation: handbells
 * Mission: church bellsWebmaster for www.TSCChapter134.org
 

    On Saturday, April 11, 2020, 8:02:47 AM CDT, David Bagley <david at ringing.demon.co.uk> wrote:  
 
 Whilst on the subject of Gloucester, does anybody know anything about the small chime of 12 which used to be in the Eastgate Shopping Centre? I remember seeing them hung on a wall many moons ago, and they used to be listed in Dove as a chime. I did try to make enquiries a while back and was told that the bells were in storage. David     From: Chris Pickford via Bell-historians Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:45 AMTo: 'Bell Historians Mailing List' Cc: Chris Pickford Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries 
For the Gloucester clock, all I can add is that I have a 1960s colour postcard of it and the caption says:
 
  

The Southgate Clock was built in 1904, with a set of five figures depicting England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales with Father Time in the centre who chimes the hour. The whole clock was made by Messrs. Niehus Bros. of Bristol, and the 5 bells together weigh about 2 cwt.
 
  

Chris Pickford
 

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
  
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From michael at oldlight.co.uk  Sat Apr 11 17:07:17 2020
From: michael at oldlight.co.uk (Michael A Williams)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:07:17 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <1745079729.1627045.1586614866736@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <0af401d60fdd$7f40f1c0$7dc2d540$@btinternet.com>
 <D4AA76DB7D874064885F14D8950682FD@David>
 <1745079729.1627045.1586614866736@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdPw7JninyzDVzw+pwjBMEH7ekKZ1g-=sXNAtaqPVn=uaPi5w@mail.gmail.com>

The Eastgate Shopping Centre bells were put into storage during
refurbishment but I don't think there was a plan to return them. I believe
the bells were eventually dispersed as a neighbour of my parents acquired
one when she used to work for the City Council. This was then passed on to
me and is stored in my parents' garage. I believe it is the smallest from
the set. It is a very thick casting and the electro-magnetic clapper is
still fitted.

My dad worked at Baker's for a number of years and I became quite familiar
with the clock. The mechanism takes up a considerable space in the office
behind. I don't have any details but I will see if my dad can contact his
former colleagues for info although I doubt he will find anything until the
shop reopens. I recall the figures and striking mechanisms were restored
during his time there.

Michael

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 15:24, Carl S Zimmerman <csz_stl at swbell.net> wrote:

> The bells came from Petit & Fritsen, and they were installed in 1973.
> From what I can see in Google Streetview, the building has been redeveloped
> leaving no place for the bells, so "in storage" sounds reasonable.
>
> Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist
> Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
>  - 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers
> Tel. +1(314)821-8437
> Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org
>  * Avocation: tower bells
>  * Recreation: handbells
>  * Mission: church bells
> Webmaster for www.TSCChapter134.org
>
>
> On Saturday, April 11, 2020, 8:02:47 AM CDT, David Bagley <
> david at ringing.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Whilst on the subject of Gloucester, does anybody know anything about the
> small chime of 12 which used to be in the Eastgate Shopping Centre? I
> remember seeing them hung on a wall many moons ago, and they used to be
> listed in Dove as a chime.
>
> I did try to make enquiries a while back and was told that the bells were
> in storage.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Pickford via Bell-historians
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:45 AM
> *To:* 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
> *Cc:* Chris Pickford
> *Subject:* Re: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
>
>
> For the Gloucester clock, all I can add is that I have a 1960s colour
> postcard of it and the caption says:
>
>
>
> The Southgate Clock was built in 1904, with a set of five figures
> depicting England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales with Father Time in the
> centre who chimes the hour. The whole clock was made by Messrs. Niehus
> Bros. of Bristol, and the 5 bells together weigh about 2 cwt.
>
>
>
> *Chris Pickford*
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bell-historians mailing list
> Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
> https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
> _______________________________________________
> Bell-historians mailing list
> Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
> https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
> _______________________________________________
> Bell-historians mailing list
> Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
> https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
>
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From c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 12 19:59:34 2020
From: c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com (Chris Pickford)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 19:59:34 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <009901d610fc$823c4800$86b4d800$@btinternet.com>

I've looked into GLUSBURN INSTITUTE and it proves to be quite an interesting
story. Not much use to Mike, though, as it looks as though there are only
two bells.

 

The clock was supplied by Potts of Leeds in 1911. It's mentioned in the book
by Michael Potts on Potts of Leeds (a really useful reference book that
helps to answer lots of queries on clock chimes). Using the British
Newspaper Archive I found a couple of references to the clock, but nothing
on the maker or mechanism let alone the bells.

 

I also checked the Taylor records but they don't seem to have supplied the
bells for this particular Potts clock - although there are plenty of others
in the years on either side

 

However, a query to Michael Potts produced the answer. For the Glusburn
clock, Potts used two secondhand bells - by Mears 1852. Without going into
too much detail, they originally belonged to a clock (with a three-bell
chime) at the school built by H.L. Pattinson in associated with his Chemical
Works at Felling, near Gateshead. The Whitechapel records (an entry I'd
previously noted) list three bells supplied to Cooke - and evidently for
Felling in in 1852. The clock at the school must have been altered in about
1911 and Potts bought the bells, using two at Glusburn and the other for a
clock at Stainland. 

 

So Glusburn Institute has a ding-dong chime on two bells by Mears, 1852,
weighing 4-3-3 and 10-2-11.

 

This solves several mysteries. Michael Potts wasn't completely sure where
the Felling bells had come from. Steve and Darlah Thomas - authors of a
splendid book on Cooke of York - didn't know what had happened to the clock
and bells from Felling. The "glue" holding the story together is the Cooke
catalogue (in my Turret Clocks publication) and the Whitechapel daybook
entry. Putting these together with the information supplied by Michael and
the account of the Felling Chemical Works in the book by Steve and Darlah
completed the story.

 

Chris Pickford

 

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From scott.orr at ouce.ox.ac.uk  Sun Apr 12 20:15:55 2020
From: scott.orr at ouce.ox.ac.uk (Scott Allan Orr)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 20:15:55 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Clock Chime Queries
In-Reply-To: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO3P265MB177176A7115F23E9D84ABEA4BBDF0@LO3P265MB1771.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAKC+cb2TV7cGFhxXPSn9AfEWHYu6T8jf5K=kQ1Hg+Hx3UdVAsA@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps of interest is to note the Baker & Sons chimes was highlighted in
William Wooding Starmer's 1918 lecture as a demonstration of the revival of
the "old interest in quarter Jacks...particularly for the purpose of
advertisement." (p. 14)

The Clock Jacks of England
Author(s): William Wooding Starmer
Source: Proceedings of the Musical Association, 44th Sess. (1917 - 1918),
pp. 1-17

Published by: Taylor & Francis, Ltd. on behalf of the Royal Musical
Association

Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/765764

Kind regards,
Scott

*Dr Scott Allan Orr *(he/him)

Lecturer in Heritage Data Science
UCL Institute for Sustainable Heritage
University College London | Central House | 14 Upper Woburn Pl | London |
WC1H 0NN
Phone: +44(0)2031 086 480 (remains active during remote working)



On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 09:31, Mike Chester <mikechester at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Can anyone supply me with details of the bells for the clock chimes at:
>
> Baker & Sons, Gloucester - on the outside of the building, struck by
> figures.  All I know is that it was installed in 1904, and that the hour
> bell is not the expected note!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GqynS9VOKA
>
> and
>
> Glusburn Institute - installed in 1911 for the coronation of George V
>
> Many thanks
>
> Mike
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#m_-8021282678566669970_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
> Bell-historians mailing list
> Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
> https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
>
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From csz_stl at swbell.net  Tue Apr 14 02:28:31 2020
From: csz_stl at swbell.net (Carl S Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 01:28:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] Mumbai clock -chime
References: <33347801.28976.1586827711373.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <33347801.28976.1586827711373@mail.yahoo.com>

A recent news article has a photo of the Lund & Blockley clock that chimes the 16 Taylor bells from 1883.
    https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/coronavirus/news/the-ticking-must-go-on/articleshow/75113706.cms
(The article incorrectly says 14 bells.)

Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist 
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
 - 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers 
Tel. +1(314)821-8437 
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org
 * Avocation: tower bells
 * Recreation: handbells
 * Mission: church bellsWebmaster for www.TSCChapter134.org
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From dickon at lovesguide.com  Thu Apr 16 19:34:44 2020
From: dickon at lovesguide.com (Dickon Love)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 19:34:44 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Bizarre Warner octave scale
Message-ID: <00ce01d6141d$b65725a0$230570e0$@lovesguide.com>

I have been doing some research into the old bells of St Peter's, Tunbridge
Wells. They were a Warner 5 in an 8 bell frame, augmented (with a treble) to
6, and then (with 2 trebles) to an 8, all in the space of decade. The Kent &
Sussex Courier on 24 Jan 1879 says that when the octave is complete, the
notes of the bells will be "1st F sharp; 2nd, E; 3rd D (the recent
addition); 4th C; 5th, B; 6th A; 7th, G; 8th (tenor), F flat." (from the
tenor, F flat, G, A, B, C, D, E, F sharp)   Clearly this is not a diatonic
8, and my instinct was (is) to put this down to a series of typos. The
nearest key to these is F major (F, G, A, B flat, C, D, E, F). However,
before I dismiss this out of hand, might there be occasions where Warners
got the key so wrong that someone with perfect pitch might choose to
describe the notes in this way?

 

The ring can't have been very good. Gilletts recast them (and put them in a
new frame) 34 years later.

 

DrL



-- 
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From rbimson79 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 16 19:55:09 2020
From: rbimson79 at hotmail.com (Richard Bimson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:55:09 +0000
Subject: [Bell Historians] Bizarre Warner octave scale
In-Reply-To: <00ce01d6141d$b65725a0$230570e0$@lovesguide.com>
References: <00ce01d6141d$b65725a0$230570e0$@lovesguide.com>
Message-ID: <VI1P193MB023789AB4637D87CCC32FF15A7D80@VI1P193MB0237.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I think that if the tenor note were F# and not F flat then the notes as given would make them in the Locrian mode. That is probably entirely irrelevant as mis-prints/understanding is far more likely.
Richard
________________________________
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:34:44 PM
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Subject: [Bell Historians] Bizarre Warner octave scale


I have been doing some research into the old bells of St Peter’s, Tunbridge Wells. They were a Warner 5 in an 8 bell frame, augmented (with a treble) to 6, and then (with 2 trebles) to an 8, all in the space of decade. The Kent & Sussex Courier on 24 Jan 1879 says that when the octave is complete, the notes of the bells will be “1st F sharp; 2nd, E; 3rd D (the recent addition); 4th C; 5th, B; 6th A; 7th, G; 8th (tenor), F flat." (from the tenor, F flat, G, A, B, C, D, E, F sharp)   Clearly this is not a diatonic 8, and my instinct was (is) to put this down to a series of typos. The nearest key to these is F major (F, G, A, B flat, C, D, E, F). However, before I dismiss this out of hand, might there be occasions where Warners got the key so wrong that someone with perfect pitch might choose to describe the notes in this way?



The ring can’t have been very good. Gilletts recast them (and put them in a new frame) 34 years later.



DrL

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From dickon at lovesguide.com  Sat Apr 18 19:36:17 2020
From: dickon at lovesguide.com (Dickon Love)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 19:36:17 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
Message-ID: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>

What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally
archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?

 

DrL



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From gtbartonbells at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 22:31:23 2020
From: gtbartonbells at gmail.com (Neal Dodge)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 22:31:23 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
Message-ID: <3b8r7q7bqhr6suwnqf-ry7tdgsdm31n1cf97l-1jnmlm-o3rr9-ib430e-lwcbgg-24ynclpyzayz619dn1-t14bg5v8buro-3s42tiu3044c-ruftaq-dmcmtn-egsocd-genef7-fg3hcy-prc1c5rinin5.1587245483007@email.android.com>

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From scott.orr at ouce.ox.ac.uk  Sat Apr 18 23:09:30 2020
From: scott.orr at ouce.ox.ac.uk (Scott Allan Orr)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 23:09:30 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
In-Reply-To: <3b8r7q7bqhr6suwnqf-ry7tdgsdm31n1cf97l-1jnmlm-o3rr9-ib430e-lwcbgg-24ynclpyzayz619dn1-t14bg5v8buro-3s42tiu3044c-ruftaq-dmcmtn-egsocd-genef7-fg3hcy-prc1c5rinin5.1587245483007@email.android.com>
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
 <3b8r7q7bqhr6suwnqf-ry7tdgsdm31n1cf97l-1jnmlm-o3rr9-ib430e-lwcbgg-24ynclpyzayz619dn1-t14bg5v8buro-3s42tiu3044c-ruftaq-dmcmtn-egsocd-genef7-fg3hcy-prc1c5rinin5.1587245483007@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAKC+cb1XePnp5UsBkRP8GhF8kbgJLdPFbsFhEkdgqBqnVRru-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Just to echo Neal (I run a module on Heritage Data Management at UCL), that
PDF/A is a good option, but there are certainly others depending on the
complexity of the information and how it is presented. Another good
practice is to include the files in the format(s) from which the PDF was
generated, e.g. the word document, text and other embedded components
(tables, text, databases). The Archaeological Data Service based at UYork
has some excellent guides for almost any type of data you can think of,
including images regarding lossless compression and such.

https://guides.archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/g2gp/TextDocs_3

Take care,
Scott

*Dr Scott Allan Orr *(he/him)

Lecturer in Heritage Data Science
UCL Institute for Sustainable Heritage
University College London | Central House | 14 Upper Woburn Pl | London |
WC1H 0NN
Phone: +44(0)2031 086 480 (remains active during remote working)


On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 22:35, Neal Dodge <gtbartonbells at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it depends on the type of media that is to be archived, and the
> desired 'shelf life', but PDF is certainly a good choice as it's an open
> file format rather than a proprietary one.
> Better yet would be PDF/A, the version of PDF that is specialised for
> archiving electronic documents as it removes features of the file
> unsuitable for long term storage.
>
>
> Many thanks
> Neal Dodge
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 19:36
> To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
> Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
>
> What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally
> archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?
>
>
>
> DrL
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
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From david at thekloof.co.uk  Sun Apr 19 07:36:03 2020
From: david at thekloof.co.uk (David Kelly)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:36:03 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
In-Reply-To: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
Message-ID: <001801d61614$cc903c50$65b0b4f0$@thekloof.co.uk>

All the Keltek Trust records are archived in PDF together with the original
Excel spreadsheets and Microsoft Access Database. We don't archive the
original Word files.

Dave

 

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On
Behalf Of Dickon Love
Sent: 18 April 2020 19:36
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium

 

What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally
archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?

 

DrL

 


 
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From john at jaharrison.me.uk  Sun Apr 19 10:00:10 2020
From: john at jaharrison.me.uk (John Harrison)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:00:10 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
In-Reply-To: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
Message-ID: <586390e088john@jaharrison.me.uk>

In article <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>,
   Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com> wrote:
> What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally
> archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?

It depends on what sort of information is being stored and what failure
mechanisms you want it to survive. 

A PDF file explicitly describes what is where on the page whereas a word
processor file relies on a set of rules to re-assemble the document, which
might or might North East end up with things in the same place depending on
hidden constraints.  PDF is more open and less likely to change than
proprietary word processors.  OTOH if a PDF file becomes corrupted it can
be very hard to extract the content, whereas a corrupt WP file will contain
most of the original text (but not necessarily all in the right order, as I
discovered when rescuing one last year).

For tabular data, a format like CSV file holds the data (but not formulae)
in a far more transparent more that a native spreadsheet file, so will not
only outlive the availability of the spreadsheet but will also enable
better recovery if it becomes corrupt.

For images I suspect there is a trade-off between compactness and
recoverability but others may be able to comment on the robustness of
different formats.

For complex documents (words, images, diagrams, tables) there is merit in
saving the components separately to reduce reliance on the layer of
integration holding them together.  Note that this is done to a degree with
some modern formats like ODT and the MS XML style files, where what used to
be a black box is now a zip archive containing lots of components - though
it is disguised to look like a single file.  

For the adventurous who would like to test that statement, make a copy of a
.docx file, make sure its file extension is visible and then change it from
.docx to .zip.  Double click it and you will see the contents.

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk


From hodgeam at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 19 10:09:24 2020
From: hodgeam at btinternet.com (AMH)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:09:24 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
In-Reply-To: <586390e088john@jaharrison.me.uk>
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
 <586390e088john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <004101d6162a$38feaba0$aafc02e0$@btinternet.com>

--- I am not a specialist in these things and the question was about pdfs.  The experts among you are probably all well aware that another issue regarding archiving is the storage medium used. People who backed up and archived on floppy disks, tapes and other now obsolete media, may have the media (even if that has not degraded) but do they still have all the hardware machines in working order to run that media reliably? Storage may now be better with cloud storage - but surely there are still risks with that as it is intangible.  

Alison

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On Behalf Of John Harrison
Sent: 19 April 2020 10:00
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium

In article <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>,
   Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com> wrote:
> What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally 
> archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?

It depends on what sort of information is being stored and what failure mechanisms you want it to survive. 

A PDF file explicitly describes what is where on the page whereas a word processor file relies on a set of rules to re-assemble the document, which might or might North East end up with things in the same place depending on hidden constraints.  PDF is more open and less likely to change than proprietary word processors.  OTOH if a PDF file becomes corrupted it can be very hard to extract the content, whereas a corrupt WP file will contain most of the original text (but not necessarily all in the right order, as I discovered when rescuing one last year).

For tabular data, a format like CSV file holds the data (but not formulae) in a far more transparent more that a native spreadsheet file, so will not only outlive the availability of the spreadsheet but will also enable better recovery if it becomes corrupt.

For images I suspect there is a trade-off between compactness and recoverability but others may be able to comment on the robustness of different formats.

For complex documents (words, images, diagrams, tables) there is merit in saving the components separately to reduce reliance on the layer of integration holding them together.  Note that this is done to a degree with some modern formats like ODT and the MS XML style files, where what used to be a black box is now a zip archive containing lots of components - though it is disguised to look like a single file.  

For the adventurous who would like to test that statement, make a copy of a .docx file, make sure its file extension is visible and then change it from .docx to .zip.  Double click it and you will see the contents.

--
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians



From hodgeam at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 19 10:09:24 2020
From: hodgeam at btinternet.com (AMH)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:09:24 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium
In-Reply-To: <586390e088john@jaharrison.me.uk>
References: <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>
 <586390e088john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <004101d6162a$38feaba0$aafc02e0$@btinternet.com>

--- I am not a specialist in these things and the question was about pdfs.  The experts among you are probably all well aware that another issue regarding archiving is the storage medium used. People who backed up and archived on floppy disks, tapes and other now obsolete media, may have the media (even if that has not degraded) but do they still have all the hardware machines in working order to run that media reliably? Storage may now be better with cloud storage - but surely there are still risks with that as it is intangible.  

Alison

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On Behalf Of John Harrison
Sent: 19 April 2020 10:00
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Preferred soft copy archiving medium

In article <02b201d615b0$4252d340$c6f879c0$@lovesguide.com>,
   Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com> wrote:
> What is the perceived wisdom regarding the best medium for digitally 
> archiving information? Is PDF ok, or there is a preferred format?

It depends on what sort of information is being stored and what failure mechanisms you want it to survive. 

A PDF file explicitly describes what is where on the page whereas a word processor file relies on a set of rules to re-assemble the document, which might or might North East end up with things in the same place depending on hidden constraints.  PDF is more open and less likely to change than proprietary word processors.  OTOH if a PDF file becomes corrupted it can be very hard to extract the content, whereas a corrupt WP file will contain most of the original text (but not necessarily all in the right order, as I discovered when rescuing one last year).

For tabular data, a format like CSV file holds the data (but not formulae) in a far more transparent more that a native spreadsheet file, so will not only outlive the availability of the spreadsheet but will also enable better recovery if it becomes corrupt.

For images I suspect there is a trade-off between compactness and recoverability but others may be able to comment on the robustness of different formats.

For complex documents (words, images, diagrams, tables) there is merit in saving the components separately to reduce reliance on the layer of integration holding them together.  Note that this is done to a degree with some modern formats like ODT and the MS XML style files, where what used to be a black box is now a zip archive containing lots of components - though it is disguised to look like a single file.  

For the adventurous who would like to test that statement, make a copy of a .docx file, make sure its file extension is visible and then change it from .docx to .zip.  Double click it and you will see the contents.

--
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians