From oliverbellringer at outlook.com  Mon Jul  1 14:32:41 2024
From: oliverbellringer at outlook.com (oliver Lee)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 13:32:41 +0000
Subject: [Bell Historians] church bells of Norfolk and norwich
Message-ID: <GV2P195MB20919641738051A69FFE5B2ED5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Is their any way of obtaining of these two books which where written by the late Paul cammiade?, the only ones I can find are of the first two parts although the Norwich one seems to be more readily available!
Many thanks
Oliver lee

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

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From oliverbellringer at outlook.com  Mon Jul  1 14:35:03 2024
From: oliverbellringer at outlook.com (oliver Lee)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 13:35:03 +0000
Subject: [Bell Historians] church bells of Norfolk and norwich
In-Reply-To: <GV2P195MB20919641738051A69FFE5B2ED5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <GV2P195MB20919641738051A69FFE5B2ED5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <GV2P195MB2091C37B516875C93DF47FC5D5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Sorry I meant Cattermole, I know too many pauls in ringing circles!

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

________________________________
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of oliver Lee via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 2:32:41 PM
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Cc: oliver Lee <oliverbellringer at outlook.com>
Subject: [Bell Historians] church bells of Norfolk and norwich


Is their any way of obtaining of these two books which where written by the late Paul cammiade?, the only ones I can find are of the first two parts although the Norwich one seems to be more readily available!

Many thanks

Oliver lee



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows


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From matthewhigby at aol.com  Mon Jul  1 15:04:43 2024
From: matthewhigby at aol.com (Matthew Higby)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:04:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] church bells of Norfolk and norwich
In-Reply-To: <GV2P195MB2091C37B516875C93DF47FC5D5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <GV2P195MB20919641738051A69FFE5B2ED5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <GV2P195MB2091C37B516875C93DF47FC5D5D32@GV2P195MB2091.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <688705411.6723518.1719842683919@mail.yahoo.com>

 I have a feeling I have spare copies of both of these... I will look when I'm at work tomorrow.?
Best wishes,
Matthew
    On Monday 1 July 2024 at 14:36:22 BST, oliver Lee via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> wrote:   

 
Sorry I meant Cattermole, I know too many pauls in ringing circles!

 ?
 
Sent from Mail for Windows

 ?
 From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of oliver Lee via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 2:32:41 PM
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Cc: oliver Lee <oliverbellringer at outlook.com>
Subject: [Bell Historians] church bells of Norfolk and norwich?
Is their any way of obtaining of these two books which where written by the late Paul cammiade?, the only ones I can find are of the first two parts although the Norwich one seems to be more readily available!

Many thanks 

Oliver lee

?

Sent from Mail for Windows

?
_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
  
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From john at jaharrison.me.uk  Fri Jul 19 11:02:25 2024
From: john at jaharrison.me.uk (John Harrison)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:02:25 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
Message-ID: <5b82d7f345john@jaharrison.me.uk>

I am giving a talk in Harwell later this year and have been told by my
host that: 'Harwell does have the oldest set of 6 bells in the country'.

That seemed an odd thing to say since Harwell is an 8 to I looked it up on
Dove.  The back six are indeed old, being cast by two founders on several
dates between 1590 and 1612.  

Since they were not cast as a ring of six, and are not currently a six, I
assume that 'the oldest set of 6 bells' means 'no other tower has at least
6 bells from 1612 or earlier'.  That's not a query that Dove can perform
so can anyone verify or refute it?

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS


From tim at timjackson.email  Fri Jul 19 11:21:33 2024
From: tim at timjackson.email (Tim Jackson)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:21:33 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <5b82d7f345john@jaharrison.me.uk>
References: <5b82d7f345john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <90C282F9-31E4-428E-83D9-215F00ACDA3C@timjackson.email>

Remember that the Dove bells data is available for download allowing more complex bespoke queries to be run off-site.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 19 Jul 2024, at 11:05, John Harrison <john at jaharrison.me.uk> wrote:

?I am giving a talk in Harwell later this year and have been told by my
host that: 'Harwell does have the oldest set of 6 bells in the country'.

That seemed an odd thing to say since Harwell is an 8 to I looked it up on
Dove.  The back six are indeed old, being cast by two founders on several
dates between 1590 and 1612.  

Since they were not cast as a ring of six, and are not currently a six, I
assume that 'the oldest set of 6 bells' means 'no other tower has at least
6 bells from 1612 or earlier'.  That's not a query that Dove can perform
so can anyone verify or refute it?

--
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians


From richard at ex-parrot.com  Fri Jul 19 12:11:36 2024
From: richard at ex-parrot.com (Richard Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 12:11:36 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <5b82d7f345john@jaharrison.me.uk>
References: <5b82d7f345john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>



On Fri 19 Jul 2024 11:02, John Harrison wrote:
> I am giving a talk in Harwell later this year and have been told by my
> host that: 'Harwell does have the oldest set of 6 bells in the country'.
> 
> That seemed an odd thing to say since Harwell is an 8 to I looked it up on
> Dove.  The back six are indeed old, being cast by two founders on several
> dates between 1590 and 1612.
> 
> Since they were not cast as a ring of six, and are not currently a six, I
> assume that 'the oldest set of 6 bells' means 'no other tower has at least
> 6 bells from 1612 or earlier'.  That's not a query that Dove can perform
> so can anyone verify or refute it?

The Dove website does not allow you to answer precisely the question 
you've asked: which tower has the six oldest bells.  However, I would 
suggest that it is not the fact that Harwell has six old bells that 
makes them special, but rather that it is the back six bells, so you can 
still go and ring minor on the old six.

You can use the Dove website to answer the question which is the oldest 
six, if back sixes are included.  Go to the tower list page:

   https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove

In the number of bells selector, choose '6+'.  In the 'sort by' 
selector, choose 'Newest bell'.  This will cause a new selector titled 
'Inc. back ns' to be displayed.  Go to to that, and choose 'Yes', which 
will mean you are ordering by the newest bell in the back six, rather 
than in the full ring.

Press the 'Go' button to run the search.  This will take you to the 
following page:

 
https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove?bells=6%2B&include_back_ns=1&order=newest_bell

This list will confirm that Harwell are the oldest back six, based on 
the age of the newest bell in the back six (1612).   The second and 
third oldest are also in the Oxford Diocese: at Hurst (1642) and 
Dorchester (1651).

I wrote about this in my Christmas 2021 article for the Ringing World:

   https://bb.ringingworld.co.uk/issues/2021/1144

See the second paragraph on p.1148 in particular

RAS









From john at jaharrison.me.uk  Fri Jul 19 12:31:00 2024
From: john at jaharrison.me.uk (John Harrison)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 12:31:00 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
Message-ID: <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>

Richard

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.  In fact after Tim prompted me to
download data and do offline searches I downloaded all bells up to 1612 in
rings of 6+ into a spreadsheet and added a function to check each
place/dedication with the entry 6 rows above.  Only Harwell came through
that filter so not only does it have the oldest back six it also has the
oldest set of six.

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS


From c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com  Fri Jul 19 13:26:47 2024
From: c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com (c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 13:26:47 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
 <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93-lvywqt-lcshebpseg8foka6bz-suopns51p28v.1721391148152@email.android.com>

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From john at jaharrison.me.uk  Sat Jul 20 10:07:09 2024
From: john at jaharrison.me.uk (John Harrison)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 10:07:09 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
 <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>
 <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93
Message-ID: <5b8356b9f0john@jaharrison.me.uk>

> Oldest SURVIVING ring of six.  

I think that's taken as read in the comment the local historian made that
the church 'does have the oldest set ...'.  The fact that they are still
there implies that they survived.

However, I wanted to check it is because local beliefs aren't always
entirely accurate.

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS


From csz_stl at swbell.net  Sat Jul 20 18:45:53 2024
From: csz_stl at swbell.net (Carl S Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:45:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93-lvywqt-lcshebpseg8foka6bz-suopns51p28v.1721391148152@email.android.com>
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
 <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>
 <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93-lvywqt-lcshebpseg8foka6bz-suopns51p28v.1721391148152@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <1332492917.456801.1721497553645@mail.yahoo.com>

Chris's remarks prompt me to raise a related question.? While Dove Online constitutes a splendid inventory of existing rings and their component bells, and provides the basis for extensive statistical analyses of that inventory, how would one go about developing statistical analyses for earlier points in the history of change ringing, or for historical trends?
Such analyses are quite possible and practical for the histories of carillons and chimes in North America, because the TowerBells database describes each known present or former instrument in terms of the phases of its technological history.? Also, the total historical period is relatively short -- just over a century for traditional carillons, and less than two centuries for chimes of all types.? One example of the type of analysis that can be done is here:? http://www.towerbells.org/data/IXNATRyrHistory.html? (A lot more is possible; I just haven't gotten a round tuit!)

The situation is much different in the ringing world, where some records go back for more than four centuries.? County books undoubtedly provide partial snapshots as of their various publication dates, and surviving histories of individual towers.? What else can be done, or has been done, in the way of historical statistical analyses?

Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist 
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
?- 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers 
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org
?


    On Saturday, July 20, 2024 at 01:47:56 AM CDT, c.j.pickford.t21--- via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> wrote:  
 
 Oldest SURVIVING ring of six.?
I always feel that such qualifying adjectives limit the true significance of such claims. By 1612 there were quite a lot of rings of six in existence (although in 1552 there were far fewer - but some)?
Important and interesting as a survival, but in the historical narrative Harwell's significance is minor
Chris Pickford?

Sent from my Huawei phone

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
From: John Harrison 
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
CC: 



Richard

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.? In fact after Tim prompted me to
download data and do offline searches I downloaded all bells up to 1612 in
rings of 6+ into a spreadsheet and added a function to check each
place/dedication with the entry 6 rows above.? Only Harwell came through
that filter so not only does it have the oldest back six it also has the
oldest set of six.

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians


_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians
  
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From dickon at lovesguide.com  Sun Jul 21 11:03:31 2024
From: dickon at lovesguide.com (Dickon Love)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 11:03:31 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
In-Reply-To: <1332492917.456801.1721497553645@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
 <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>
 <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93-lvywqt-lcshebpseg8foka6bz-suopns51p28v.1721391148152@email.android.com>
 <1332492917.456801.1721497553645@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <075101dadb55$3e64d6b0$bb2e8410$@lovesguide.com>

Carl asks about the feasibility of recording and reporting on former bells and collections of bells. As he rightly says, Dove is focussed on what is in existence now, however in the background the Dove Team is able to record bells/collections that are no-longer in existence. This is an area for future development, both in terms of the design of the database, and the gathering of data. In the first instance we?ll be recording lost full-circle rings in order to drive the corresponding tables in the published book appendices. In time, it will be possible to grow this data set. However, as Carl says, the history of these things goes back centuries, with many unknowns, so we?ll never get a complete dataset. It is a huge job!

 

Dickon Love

Bromley, Kent

07983 352279

 

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On Behalf Of Carl S Zimmerman
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 6:46 PM
To: Bell Historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Cc: c.j.pickford.t21 at btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?

 

Chris's remarks prompt me to raise a related question.  While Dove Online constitutes a splendid inventory of existing rings and their component bells, and provides the basis for extensive statistical analyses of that inventory, how would one go about developing statistical analyses for earlier points in the history of change ringing, or for historical trends?

 

Such analyses are quite possible and practical for the histories of carillons and chimes in North America, because the TowerBells database describes each known present or former instrument in terms of the phases of its technological history.  Also, the total historical period is relatively short -- just over a century for traditional carillons, and less than two centuries for chimes of all types.  One example of the type of analysis that can be done is here:  http://www.towerbells.org/data/IXNATRyrHistory.html  (A lot more is possible; I just haven't gotten a round tuit!)

 

The situation is much different in the ringing world, where some records go back for more than four centuries.  County books undoubtedly provide partial snapshots as of their various publication dates, and surviving histories of individual towers.  What else can be done, or has been done, in the way of historical statistical analyses?

 

Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist 
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
 - 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers 
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org <http://www.TowerBells.org> 

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, July 20, 2024 at 01:47:56 AM CDT, c.j.pickford.t21--- via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> > wrote: 

 

 

Oldest SURVIVING ring of six. 

 

I always feel that such qualifying adjectives limit the true significance of such claims. By 1612 there were quite a lot of rings of six in existence (although in 1552 there were far fewer - but some) 

 

Important and interesting as a survival, but in the historical narrative Harwell's significance is minor

 

Chris Pickford 

Sent from my Huawei phone



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?
From: John Harrison 
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> 
CC: 

Richard

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.  In fact after Tim prompted me to
download data and do offline searches I downloaded all bells up to 1612 in
rings of 6+ into a spreadsheet and added a function to check each
place/dedication with the entry 6 rows above.  Only Harwell came through
that filter so not only does it have the oldest back six it also has the
oldest set of six.

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> 
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> 
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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From david at thekloof.co.uk  Sun Jul 21 19:14:20 2024
From: david at thekloof.co.uk (David Kelly)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 19:14:20 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] On-line Dove expansion - lost rings etc
In-Reply-To: <075101dadb55$3e64d6b0$bb2e8410$@lovesguide.com>
References: <9350675f-960a-4b10-9224-04dd988dc689@ex-parrot.com>
 <5b82e00f67john@jaharrison.me.uk>
 <-yhju13-5c09hm4lbmc81rnewk-jbyh2g-doxoli-8mguhf4eia6f2zwraj-h2u1si-6vbxrr-p1qu4fmatu69lqi2z797zf7620zwz7-uts9b0-419t93-lvywqt-lcshebpseg8foka6bz-suopns51p28v.1721391148152@email.android.com>
 <1332492917.456801.1721497553645@mail.yahoo.com>
 <075101dadb55$3e64d6b0$bb2e8410$@lovesguide.com>
Message-ID: <000701dadb99$ced2ed60$6c78c820$@thekloof.co.uk>

In response to Dickon?s posting earlier today (Oldest set of six?), lists of Lost rings, Transferred rings, Reduced rings, Chimes to rings are already available and may be found on the Keltek Trust web site. They are in Excel format and are free for anyone to download. The information is in a similar format to the printed editions of Dove but does not contain the extensive information that on-line Dove now holds for each ring of bells.

https://www.keltektrust.org.uk/downloads.html

The origin of the data was the eighth edition of Dove (1994) but has been greatly extended e.g. there have been over 250 updates to the Lost rings list in the past 20 years. The Lost rings of 3 list has been compiled from scratch with over 400 confirmed losses and a further 82 on the ?Pending? list awaiting further investigation. Although the files are accessible on the Keltek Trust web site the compilation and updates are completely independent. I would like to pay a tribute to the late David Cawley who provided a wealth of information. Other main contributors include Chris Pickford, Tim Jackson, Nick Bowden and Mike Chester.

 

In due course we believe the data will be incorporated into the on-line Dove database and would be a sensible starting point for future expansion ? e.g. details of individual bells, peal records etc. 

 

We were approached by the Dove Publications team asking for permission to include the data in Dove 10 and Dove 11 and this was readily given. We have yet to be approached by the on-line Dove team to use this data but permission will be readily given once a request is received.

 

The Keltek Trust does hold information that is not publicly available. We (KT) have made available to a member of the on-line Dove team ?chosen by us? a list of source and destination places for the 900+ bells we have helped to relocate or are in the process of relocation and note that some details are already starting to appear in on-line Dove. We are not making the data freely available; as well as 788 transfers that have already taken place there are some 100+ pending transfers. Some of this information is sensitive and would be premature to make public. The ?chosen member? consults us regarding the release of pending transfer information and we give permission on a case by case basis.

 

Dave Kelly

 

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On Behalf Of Dickon Love
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 11:04 AM
To: 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?

 

Carl asks about the feasibility of recording and reporting on former bells and collections of bells. As he rightly says, Dove is focussed on what is in existence now, however in the background the Dove Team is able to record bells/collections that are no-longer in existence. This is an area for future development, both in terms of the design of the database, and the gathering of data. In the first instance we?ll be recording lost full-circle rings in order to drive the corresponding tables in the published book appendices. In time, it will be possible to grow this data set. However, as Carl says, the history of these things goes back centuries, with many unknowns, so we?ll never get a complete dataset. It is a huge job!

 

Dickon Love

Bromley, Kent

07983 352279

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From dickon at lovesguide.com  Mon Jul 22 20:49:04 2024
From: dickon at lovesguide.com (Dickon Love)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:49:04 +0100
Subject: [Bell Historians] On-line Dove expansion - lost rings etc
In-Reply-To: <000701dadb99$ced2ed60$6c78c820$@thekloof.co.uk>
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Thanks to Dave Kelly for his message yesterday. I?m glad he emphasised the work by others on details of lost rings and lost bells, and I?d add that the work that Dave has done himself has contributed to this in no small measure. I?m very grateful for the positive relationship that exists between Keltek and the Dove Team.

 

I marvel at the fact that KT has worked to relocate as many as 900+ bells. I do hope there?ll be some celebration when the 1000th bell is reached!

 

Dickon Love

Bromley, Kent

07983 352279

 

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On Behalf Of David Kelly via Bell-historians
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 7:14 PM
To: 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Cc: David Kelly <david at thekloof.co.uk>
Subject: [Bell Historians] On-line Dove expansion - lost rings etc

 

In response to Dickon?s posting earlier today (Oldest set of six?), lists of Lost rings, Transferred rings, Reduced rings, Chimes to rings are already available and may be found on the Keltek Trust web site. They are in Excel format and are free for anyone to download. The information is in a similar format to the printed editions of Dove but does not contain the extensive information that on-line Dove now holds for each ring of bells.

https://www.keltektrust.org.uk/downloads.html

The origin of the data was the eighth edition of Dove (1994) but has been greatly extended e.g. there have been over 250 updates to the Lost rings list in the past 20 years. The Lost rings of 3 list has been compiled from scratch with over 400 confirmed losses and a further 82 on the ?Pending? list awaiting further investigation. Although the files are accessible on the Keltek Trust web site the compilation and updates are completely independent. I would like to pay a tribute to the late David Cawley who provided a wealth of information. Other main contributors include Chris Pickford, Tim Jackson, Nick Bowden and Mike Chester.

 

In due course we believe the data will be incorporated into the on-line Dove database and would be a sensible starting point for future expansion ? e.g. details of individual bells, peal records etc. 

 

We were approached by the Dove Publications team asking for permission to include the data in Dove 10 and Dove 11 and this was readily given. We have yet to be approached by the on-line Dove team to use this data but permission will be readily given once a request is received.

 

The Keltek Trust does hold information that is not publicly available. We (KT) have made available to a member of the on-line Dove team ?chosen by us? a list of source and destination places for the 900+ bells we have helped to relocate or are in the process of relocation and note that some details are already starting to appear in on-line Dove. We are not making the data freely available; as well as 788 transfers that have already taken place there are some 100+ pending transfers. Some of this information is sensitive and would be premature to make public. The ?chosen member? consults us regarding the release of pending transfer information and we give permission on a case by case basis.

 

Dave Kelly

 

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> > On Behalf Of Dickon Love
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 11:04 AM
To: 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> >
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Oldest set of six?

 

Carl asks about the feasibility of recording and reporting on former bells and collections of bells. As he rightly says, Dove is focussed on what is in existence now, however in the background the Dove Team is able to record bells/collections that are no-longer in existence. This is an area for future development, both in terms of the design of the database, and the gathering of data. In the first instance we?ll be recording lost full-circle rings in order to drive the corresponding tables in the published book appendices. In time, it will be possible to grow this data set. However, as Carl says, the history of these things goes back centuries, with many unknowns, so we?ll never get a complete dataset. It is a huge job!

 

Dickon Love

Bromley, Kent

07983 352279



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