[Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Wed Jun 3 11:13:31 BST 2026

Chris - I wasn't really questioning the data about the use of second-hand bells, or augmentations, which is interesting and useful to know. It was the 'ring created' details that I was questioning, especially when ring has not changed from the day it was put in, but having read Dickons response, I now understand the reasoning.

Richard
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From: Chris Pickford <pickford5040 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 June 2026 5:09 PM
To: Bell Historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>; Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com>
Cc: Richard Offen <richardoffen at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Richard - just to chip in that with the reuse of secondhand bells augmentation dates aren't always blindingly obvious. I can see the sense in recording them clearly and separately.
Chris Pickford

Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> on behalf of Richard Offen via Bell-historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2026 9:47:25 AM
To: Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com<mailto:dickon at lovesguide.com>>; 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Cc: Richard Offen <richardoffen at outlook.com<mailto:richardoffen at outlook.com>>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Thanks Dickon.

R

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From: Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com<mailto:dickon at lovesguide.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 June 2026 4:23 PM
To: 'Richard Offen' <richardoffen at outlook.com<mailto:richardoffen at outlook.com>>; 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

"Construction events" for rings of bells, i.e. dates and information on how individual rings were first created, were introduced as the anchor for "transfer events" and is a neat way to index a particular ring. So for example the database notes that the ring at Perth Bell Tower was constructed 1726, but subsequently augmented and transferred, with various bells recast in the meantime. It is an important key. In the case of St Dunstan-in-the-West, Fleet St, we can refer to (although don't yet) to the 1713 ring, the 1832 ring and the 2011 ring.

Whilst in most instances, the creation date is 'blindingly obvious' from the casting dates, sometimes it isn't. Look at Orange, NSW. Ring constructed in 2007 from bells dating from 1754 to 2005.

So in summary, Dove can now capture the lifecycle of a ring (bell collection):

  *   When constructed
  *   When augmented/reduced
  *   When rehung ("major overhauls")
  *   When transferred
  *   When converted from one ring type to another (e.g. full-circle to chime)
  *   When destroyed (i.e. no-longer considered a collection because of scrapping or dispersal)

The new printed book is not envisaged to contain all this additional information, or project descriptions, etc. The database will however generate the listings at the back, e.g. lost/transfer, and we are working very hard at the moment to get all that information into database format - a review process that has already highlighted some differences from previously published data.

Dickon Love

Bromley, Kent

07983 352279

From: Richard Offen <richardoffen at outlook.com<mailto:richardoffen at outlook.com>>
Sent: 03 June 2026 02:17
To: Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com<mailto:dickon at lovesguide.com>>; 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Thanks for your reply. I note your explanations of the points I raised.

I'm not quite sure I see the point of a note to say a ring was created in a particular year when it is blindingly obvious from the cast dates in bell details for the entry, but I suppose that's a minor detail.

How much of this new information will find its way into a new printed edition of Dove? It will be a weighty tome if all the extra information is to appear!

Best wishes,

Richard

Sent from Richard Offen's iPad.

________________________________

From: Dickon Love <dickon at lovesguide.com<mailto:dickon at lovesguide.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 6:44:36 PM
To: 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Cc: 'Richard Offen' <richardoffen at outlook.com<mailto:richardoffen at outlook.com>>
Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Thanks Richard,

I can answer the question about the dual lines that appear against some events. The first line is system generated. The second line is part of the project update that was provided at the time and refines the information. We needed the system generated line as in many instances there was no project update. But we maintain the project line as it can often give that little bit more information in addition to the system generated line (and largely predates those). As you know, this is a VERY new feature and, as data is entered, we can review to determine what actually appears on the screen. However, the view of most people is to have too much information than miss out on any. The same goes for the summaries of the projects, which can be crafted by different individuals - either in the Dove Team, or prescribed by the contractors and/or towers. Again, we prefer to have more than less. Being an online resource, we don't believe this is a problem. Clearly wording would be edited were projects to be part of a written work. Given that there are now thousands of these, we can't easily abbreviate all of them, and indeed, we receive feedback to say that too much abbreviation is unwanted. However, this may be something we can review in the future once we shift our focus from the rapid data entry currently required if we want to produce a new hardback book.

Not to be too defensive though - we do like to receive/encourage feedback!! :)

Dickon Love

Dove Lead

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> On Behalf Of Richard Offen via Bell-historians
Sent: 02 June 2026 11:31
To: Bell Historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Cc: Richard Offen <richardoffen at outlook.com<mailto:richardoffen at outlook.com>>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Whilst the information about which bells in a ring are used as part of a clock chime might be of interest to some people, I think it would be a bridge too far to include this information on Dove.

In my opinion, Dove is already cluttered with too much trivial and repetitious information. Do we really need two lines stating, "Transferred from xyz and augmented from 5 bells", followed by a line stating: "The x bells were transferred from abc to xyz, 3 bells were added to make the ring up to 8"? This is in addition to a good number very verbose descriptions of work carried out on bell installations, which could easily be abbreviated to just one line.

Richard

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From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> On Behalf Of Dickon Love
Sent: Tuesday, 2 June 2026 4:56 PM
To: 'Bell Historians' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Cc: 'Carl S Zimmerman' <csz_stl at swbell.net<mailto:csz_stl at swbell.net>>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Thanks for the question. Responding from the Dove perspective.

We do record some ancillary aspects, for example, we record the presence of an Ellacombe rack, but only provided we are advised of its presence. In the case of Madley, we hadn't been notified, but I have just updated the Dove record. https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/tower/11004

We also note if bells are rung from e.g. baton keyboard, electronic controls, with the same proviso.

We do not record which bells are used as quarter or hour bells unless they are installed as such as their principle use.

We know about the AHS Database, and indeed I have my own log-in details for it.

In theory we could start recording which bells are quarter/hour bells, and indeed record references to the AHS database. The issue is that of time and the ability to maintain these data to a sufficiently high quality. We would also need to complete additional development to allow these fields - although once done, this would not in itself be a huge effort.  In the case of the AHS database, it is not public, so the value would only be limited. Of course, those who run the AHS database would be welcome to maintain Dove Tower IDs within their database, and provided the quality is sufficient, data exchange could take place in that direction, and I'd be happy to speak to them about that.

There has been a fair degree of expansion within Dove over the past few years to meet the interests of the ringing community and the Church of England, as well as to support the various appendices in the published book, so we have to be careful what else we take on, although there are a couple more major expansions in the pipeline.

Dickon Love

Dove Lead

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> On Behalf Of Carl S Zimmerman via Bell-historians
Sent: 31 May 2026 03:36
To: Bell Historians <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
Cc: Carl S Zimmerman <csz_stl at swbell.net<mailto:csz_stl at swbell.net>>
Subject: [Bell Historians] Bells & clocks

Inspired by a news article on restoration of the clockworrks at Madley, Herts., I write to ask whether there is a national list of tower clocks comparable to what Dove provides for bells.  If so, is anyone considering connecting such a list with Dove? or expanding Dove to include mentions of ancillary equipment?  Madley, for example, has a restored Ellacombe rack that operates on all eight bells, plus a tower clock that strikes the hour as well as the half hour (and perhaps the quarters as well).  But neither of those facilities is mentioned in Dove's entry for Madley, so it is not clear which of the eight serve also as clock bells.  Other rings have associated chiming machines of various kinds, probably also associated with clockworks.

Currently I am working on a project to consolidate lists of known products of American tower clock manufacturers, with the aim of eventually connecting that with the various surviving lists of the products of American bellfounders.  I hope to increase tower clock enthusiasts' appreciation of the bells associated with such clocks, and vice versa.

Comments?

Carl Scott Zimmerman, Campanologist
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
 - 19th c. home of at least 37 bell founders or resellers
Tel. +1-314-821-8437
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org<http://www.towerbells.org/>
 * Avocation: tower bells
 * Recreation: handbells

 * Mission: church bells

Webmaster for www.TSCChapter134.org<http://www.tscchapter134.org/>

Treasurer, World Carillon Federation

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