[r-t] Re: Lincolnshire
robin at robinw.org.uk
Fri Nov 12 13:57:40 UTC 2004
All of the material included here can be verified by referral to the MC's
own 'idiot's guide' - a copy of version of which dated 13th September 1995
by Roger Bailey can be supplied to anyone on request.
Lincolnshire S Major has no (internal*) places below the treble until the
treble is dodging in 5-6. Places are then made in every position up to and
including the half-lead. In conventional notation, these can be denoted as
follows: (* - external places remain external so don't affect the current
Section F G H I
x4x 5 x36x 7
For static extensions, the previous decisions required an extension not to
start until the last place under the treble had been reached. In this case,
this place is in position I so it seems that we are only allowed extension
SHI x4x 5 x36x 7 x36x 7
However, we are allowed two more in this particular case, SGH and SHI with
the half-lead expanded in both cases thus :
SHI x4x 5 x36x 7 x36x 9
SGH x4x 5 x36x 5 x36x 9
There are no such restrictions in expanding extensions - we only have to
start our extension after the last set of 2nds place, but there isn't in
Lincolnshire. (It does rather restrict the choice for Kent, 'tho!) We are
therefore allowed all six paths - ECD, EDE,.., EHI but it turns out that ECD
= EDE and EGH = EHI giving:
EDE xxx 1 x6x 7 x58x 9
EEF x4x 1 x6x 7 x58x 9
EFG x4x 5 x6x 7 x58x 9
EGH x4x 5 x36x 7 x58x 9
Lincolnshire S. Royal uses the EDE extension - all internal places below the
treble are shifted two places towards the half-lead (as well as expanded).
New decision (G)B7 now applies the static restrictions to all extensions, so
EDE and EEF are no longer allowed. [(G)B8 does something similar for the
expanding restrictions but also extends it to all adjacent places made, not
just 2nds or penultimate]
Rename SHI and SGH as 8HI, 6HI and 6GH, or EFG and EGH as 1FG or 2GH if you
wish, but it doesn't change anything.
The current decision would not allow for the current extension of
Lincolnshire S Major.
Once again, for completeness, I enclose both the new (G)B7: 'wherever the
parent has a place made immediately adjacent to the path of a hunt bell,
this characteristic must be retained in all extensions' and the old
(G)A2(b)(i) and (d)(i) (conflated) 'wherever the parent has a place made
above/below the path of the treble, this characteristic must be retained in
all extensions'. They are, to all intents and purposes, identical.
Philip's assertion in his last that Lincolnshire is all right is therefore
inconsistent with the 'guide' referred to at the top of this message. This
is a new interpretation. The interpretation has always been that places
immediately below the treble have to be preserved in situ in static
extensions, which is where decision (G)B7 comes from. In fact, this 'new'
interpretation harks back to the original 1953 report where it was
sufficient to preserve just the number of places made at cross-sections. It
was always allowed for, say 5ths place in Cambridge-6 to move to 7ths place-
but that was a special rule for the half-lead.
Philip also states he would be quite glad to see the end of some
restrictions. How about abolishing (G)B1 for a start? I can accept a
properly interpreted (G)B7 and 8.
Finally, the 1971 report includes, for example, contains the following:
"B(i) Places adjoining the path of the treble in static extension.
Where the parent has a place made immediately below the path of the treble,
this characteristic must be retained in all extensions. Seconds when the
treble is in 34 and thirds when the treble is in 45 are automatically
retained. Therefore the following restrictions apply:-
4ths place made, treble in 56-SAB not permitted
5ths place made, treble in 67-SAB, SBC not permitted
6ths place made, treble in 78-SAB, SBC, SCD not permitted etc., etc."
These are the 'helpful hints .. from the 1971 decision' to which I referred.
(The notation should now be SDE, SEF, SFG,.. rather than SAB, SBC, SCD, but
the principle is the same.).
If others take the trouble to read the 1995 guide and read letters on the
subject in the Ringing World over many years - say back to 1987 - then you
may be as surprised as I am with the new decision as to what constitutes
'preservation of characteristics'. I have always understood
'characteristic' to mean 'place and position'. (Above the treble - count
backwards from the half-lead for position.) You may feel as I do that the MC
is constantly moving the goal posts.
By the way, if the new decision isn't retrospective, why has Cawston Bob
Maximus been allowed this name? Also, where does it say in the decisions
that the next record peal of major has to be 80640?
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