[r-t] Method classification question

Andrew Johnson andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com
Fri Jun 2 06:56:23 UTC 2017

> What is the classification of the following royal method?
> 34.45,4
> Is it a valid extension of the major method?
> 34.45.4
> Is that in turn a valid extension of the minor method?
> 34.45.4
> -- 
> Don Morrison
First of all, thank you Don for the automatic method classifier.

Lead-end 3124685079
6 leads, 24 change round block

>From a construction point of view:
Front 3 bells plain hunt
4 is fixed
Back 6 treble bob

The hunt bell is 4.
differential hunter
4 has a well formed path
Not a plain hunt method as 4 blows in each position in the lead
so Treble Place as same number of blows in each position of its path > 2
bell 4 doesn't cover all the positions => Little

Differential Little Treble Place Royal

but consider other lead lengths for the same plain course:,4

so bells 1,2,3 and 4 are hunt bells
4 stays in 4ths
1,2,3 plain hunt, however they make more than 2 places, so it is still 
Treble Place.

If you consider the whole course as a lead,4
then it isn't officially a method, but relaxing that then every bell is a 
hunt bell, and the treble dodging test C.1.(b) gets satisfied first, then 
it becomes surprise because of the 'internal place' at the cross-section 
(by bell 4, also 5ths is made). That seems a bit odd as the place is 
outside the range of the hunt bell and it still looks more like treble 

Another interesting case might be 
Plain hunt on the front six, treble bob on the back four

Differential Royal
Differential Royal
Little Bob Royal - as the front six have returned home

Differential Little Surprise Royal - as the back four have returned home

Differential Little Treble Place Royal - the front bells have returned 
home, but made more than 2 places

Differential Little Treble Place Royal - if this were to be treated as a 
method then all the bells return home, but the plain hunt test fails for 
the front 6 as there are more than 2 blows in each position, and the 
treble bob test fails as there more than 2 places (two whole treble bob 
cycles). I think that all the hunt bells are treble place hunts.

The Little Surprise versus Little Treble Bob question still puzzles me a 
bit. If you have multiple little treble bob hunt bells then the extreme 
place of one the hunt bells counts as an internal place for the others and 
can convert the type to surprise or delight.
Consider a variation of the above, with the plain hunt out of phase so it 
doesn't have a place at the treble bob cross section.

is Differential Little Surprise Royal as the 7ths when one of the hunt 
bells turns around counts as an internal place for the others. Trying to 
adjust the rules to make this Differential Little Treble Bob Royal might 
be tricky though, and adding complexity won't be popular.

The lead versus plain course question for defining methods is intriguing. 
Is my example x6,67 etc. one method or several?

In terms of Don's contractions/extensions
34.45,4 Major is a false method
34.45,4 Minor is a false method

See http://www.methods.org.uk/ccdecs.htm#decGD
D. Extension of Little methods, principles and differentials by an even 
number of stages
so is it a mode-5 extension from the minor,major?

Andrew Johnson


Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU

More information about the ringing-theory mailing list