From mark at snowtiger.net  Wed Jan  5 19:09:55 2022
From: mark at snowtiger.net (Mark Davies)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:09:55 +0000
Subject: [r-t] Grandsire and Stedman
In-Reply-To: <CALV26Vm=mNDrF1WR6ykPNsQvazs0KqwdnOgdxE=kRx9W1G_1Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALV26Vm=mNDrF1WR6ykPNsQvazs0KqwdnOgdxE=kRx9W1G_1Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38c6b653-7335-40f9-e0bf-97ee1857037d@snowtiger.net>

This looks impressive to me:

https://complib.org/composition/90065

Thoughts?

Cheers
M


From richard at grimmett.org  Wed Jan  5 19:51:53 2022
From: richard at grimmett.org (Richard Grimmett)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:51:53 +0000
Subject: [r-t] Grandsire and Stedman
In-Reply-To: <38c6b653-7335-40f9-e0bf-97ee1857037d@snowtiger.net>
References: <CALV26Vm=mNDrF1WR6ykPNsQvazs0KqwdnOgdxE=kRx9W1G_1Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <38c6b653-7335-40f9-e0bf-97ee1857037d@snowtiger.net>
Message-ID: <f5c49d90-16c3-b0dc-3ab2-cfa4e7122671@grimmett.org>

It looks that way, but this is another example of where complib does not 
help conductors.? Conductors would need to rewrite this in a more 
intelligible form.? Well done on the compo though Thomas.

Richard



On 05/01/2022 19:09, Mark Davies wrote:
> This looks impressive to me:
>
> https://complib.org/composition/90065
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cheers
> M
>
> _______________________________________________
> ringing-theory mailing list
> ringing-theory at bellringers.org
> https://bellringers.org/listinfo/ringing-theory



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



From mark at snowtiger.net  Sat Jan 15 17:26:56 2022
From: mark at snowtiger.net (Mark Davies)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 17:26:56 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <f5c49d90-16c3-b0dc-3ab2-cfa4e7122671@grimmett.org>
References: <f5c49d90-16c3-b0dc-3ab2-cfa4e7122671@grimmett.org>
Message-ID: <74e96694-3316-5677-cc93-b3416ae2e9e0@snowtiger.net>

Have we discussed this? I can't remember doing so. I think it contains 
all 4-runs, including internal ones. I note no-one has rung it! Does 
anyone know Richard?

https://complib.org/composition/91348?fbclid=IwAR0oEMOROKFaxFKvgkedBhPXQbfU0sm2GkSWcYMlzlG3MOoMMurnlIHuol4

MBD


From graham at changeringing.co.uk  Sun Jan 16 14:25:27 2022
From: graham at changeringing.co.uk (Graham John)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 14:25:27 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <74e96694-3316-5677-cc93-b3416ae2e9e0@snowtiger.net>
References: <f5c49d90-16c3-b0dc-3ab2-cfa4e7122671@grimmett.org>
 <74e96694-3316-5677-cc93-b3416ae2e9e0@snowtiger.net>
Message-ID: <CAHe9+Aef5903_CEm+L-eU3HNxrNVv-80BOAxt32xFqF_QiWOkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 17:28, Mark Davies <mark at snowtiger.net> wrote:

> Have we discussed this? I can't remember doing so. I think it contains
> all 4-runs, including internal ones. I note no-one has rung it! Does
> anyone know Richard?

> https://complib.org/composition/91348

There is a Composition Request thread on complib for this
(https://complib.org/issue/420). Richard thinks he can get it down to
5000, but accepts that his composition is an exercise in proving it is
possible rather than something anyone would ever ring.

Graham


From andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com  Sun Jan 16 15:35:03 2022
From: andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 16:35:03 +0100
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <CAHe9+Aef5903_CEm+L-eU3HNxrNVv-80BOAxt32xFqF_QiWOkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c49d90-16c3-b0dc-3ab2-cfa4e7122671@grimmett.org>
 <74e96694-3316-5677-cc93-b3416ae2e9e0@snowtiger.net>
 <CAHe9+Aef5903_CEm+L-eU3HNxrNVv-80BOAxt32xFqF_QiWOkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF16639BD5.4B0DE9DC-ON802587CC.0051B180-802587CC.00559B2F@ibm.com>

> From: "Graham John"
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 17:28, Mark Davies wrote:
> 
> > Have we discussed this? I can't remember doing so. I think it contains
> > all 4-runs, including internal ones. I note no-one has rung it! Does
> > anyone know Richard?
> 
> 
> There is a Composition Request thread on complib for this.
> Richard thinks he can get it down to
> 5000, but accepts that his composition is an exercise in proving it is
> possible rather than something anyone would ever ring.
> 
> Graham
I think there are 176 places in that composition where you could omit
two changes with a half-lead 1234 single without losing any runs, but
the resulting 5008 would be even less ringable.

Andrew Johnson

Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 
741598. 
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU

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From mark at snowtiger.net  Sun Jan 16 18:02:24 2022
From: mark at snowtiger.net (Mark Davies)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 18:02:24 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <OF16639BD5.4B0DE9DC-ON802587CC.0051B180-802587CC.00559B2F@ibm.com>
References: <OF16639BD5.4B0DE9DC-ON802587CC.0051B180-802587CC.00559B2F@ibm.com>
Message-ID: <5123c4cb-4e66-65a7-dfcf-2cfd2696ab24@snowtiger.net>

Surely this is a ringing and conducting challenge that someone will take 
up?!

MBD


From graham at changeringing.co.uk  Mon Jan 17 14:37:14 2022
From: graham at changeringing.co.uk (Graham John)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:37:14 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <5123c4cb-4e66-65a7-dfcf-2cfd2696ab24@snowtiger.net>
References: <OF16639BD5.4B0DE9DC-ON802587CC.0051B180-802587CC.00559B2F@ibm.com>
 <5123c4cb-4e66-65a7-dfcf-2cfd2696ab24@snowtiger.net>
Message-ID: <CAHe9+Afj=n3kMzGBFS=ieSPdAiZLvJo73vp6-3rU283Ob=wvMw@mail.gmail.com>

Richard has now provided an exact 5000. It makes the impossible one-part of
Stedman Triples look like a piece of cake!

https://complib.org/composition/91437

Graham
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From mark at snowtiger.net  Mon Jan 17 20:49:34 2022
From: mark at snowtiger.net (Mark Davies)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:49:34 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <CAHe9+Afj=n3kMzGBFS=ieSPdAiZLvJo73vp6-3rU283Ob=wvMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHe9+Afj=n3kMzGBFS=ieSPdAiZLvJo73vp6-3rU283Ob=wvMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cee25662-b96f-eba7-e86d-f89fdf4fccaa@snowtiger.net>

Graham John wrote:

> Richard has now provided an exact 5000. It makes the impossible one-part of
> Stedman Triples look like a piece of cake!
> 
> https://complib.org/composition/91437

Wow! Mind you, this seems to have a CompLib score 2 down on the 5360. 
What's it missing, and can we live without it? :-D

MBD


From david_vince_sullivan at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 13:33:18 2022
From: david_vince_sullivan at yahoo.co.uk (David Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:33:18 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>

I note that this composition contains ?Near calls? and that these are ?-?, ?s?, ?b? and ?x?.
No explanation is given for any of these.

Dave


From bex280 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 18 14:17:28 2022
From: bex280 at hotmail.com (Stephen Beckingham)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:17:28 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
 <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AS8PR02MB666399AE8D7294B325F6FE478A589@AS8PR02MB6663.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Go to the composition on Complib (https://complib.org/composition/91437) and open up the Properties section - this will tell you what the calls are.

SJB

________________________________
From: ringing-theory <ringing-theory-bounces at bellringers.org> on behalf of David Sullivan <david_vince_sullivan at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: 18 January 2022 13:33
To: Ringing Theory <ringing-theory at bellringers.org>
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs

I note that this composition contains ?Near calls? and that these are ?-?, ?s?, ?b? and ?x?.
No explanation is given for any of these.

Dave

_______________________________________________
ringing-theory mailing list
ringing-theory at bellringers.org
https://bellringers.org/listinfo/ringing-theory
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From alan.reading at googlemail.com  Tue Jan 18 14:27:37 2022
From: alan.reading at googlemail.com (Alan Reading)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:27:37 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <AS8PR02MB666399AE8D7294B325F6FE478A589@AS8PR02MB6663.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
 <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
 <AS8PR02MB666399AE8D7294B325F6FE478A589@AS8PR02MB6663.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAN78bBsHwu1+Vdnp-aLtyp47msssVFAwzPHoYVtHavGDWri6KQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Types of call
4
   1234 LE Single (s)
365
   14 LE Bob (?)
561
   1456 LE Bob single (b)
263
   16 LE Big bob (x)
833

So it contains 2022 calls to obtain 1002 target rows. Not the most
favourable calls to music ratio!

Alan



On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 at 14:18, Stephen Beckingham <bex280 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Go to the composition on Complib (https://complib.org/composition/91437)
> and open up the Properties section - this will tell you what the calls are.
>
> SJB
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ringing-theory <ringing-theory-bounces at bellringers.org> on behalf
> of David Sullivan <david_vince_sullivan at yahoo.co.uk>
> *Sent:* 18 January 2022 13:33
> *To:* Ringing Theory <ringing-theory at bellringers.org>
> *Subject:* [r-t] All the 4-runs
>
> I note that this composition contains ?Near calls? and that these are ?-?,
> ?s?, ?b? and ?x?.
> No explanation is given for any of these.
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> ringing-theory mailing list
> ringing-theory at bellringers.org
> https://bellringers.org/listinfo/ringing-theory
> _______________________________________________
> ringing-theory mailing list
> ringing-theory at bellringers.org
> https://bellringers.org/listinfo/ringing-theory
>
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From john at jaharrison.me.uk  Tue Jan 18 14:29:06 2022
From: john at jaharrison.me.uk (John Harrison)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:29:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
 <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <59acc226b8john@jaharrison.me.uk>

In article <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF at yahoo.co.uk>,
   David Sullivan <david_vince_sullivan at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I note that this composition contains "Near calls" ...

On a slight tangent ... It may be a coincidence but Graham J recently
brought near and far calls to my attention.  I'd not met the terms before
but they made sense and I've added them to the glossary.

The definitions I used interpret near and far relative the hunt bell.  By
default the Treble is leading at a call but for half lead calls it would by
lying so the meanings of near and far would change, as they do for example
in the mnemonics for ringing things like Double Norwich.

With Original there is no hunt bell so near and far must have fixed
meanings, presumably relative to leading.

When I first met Original Major (as a method for ringing touches) Stan
Scott who was keen on it said it 'should' have 6th place bobs but they rang
it with 4th place bobs (hence they called it Easthampstead variation).

I wonder if there is some compositional advantage in using 4th place bobs
rather than 6th place.  It's use here suggests there might be.

> these are ?-?, ?s?, ?b? and ?x?. No explanation is given

Inspecting the blue line

- = 14
s = 1234
b = 1456
x = 16

-- 
John Harrison
Website http://jaharrison.me.uk
Using 4t? and ARMX6, both running RISC OS


From Simon.Gay at glasgow.ac.uk  Tue Jan 18 15:30:45 2022
From: Simon.Gay at glasgow.ac.uk (Simon Gay)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:30:45 +0000
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <CAN78bBsHwu1+Vdnp-aLtyp47msssVFAwzPHoYVtHavGDWri6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
 <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
 <AS8PR02MB666399AE8D7294B325F6FE478A589@AS8PR02MB6663.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAN78bBsHwu1+Vdnp-aLtyp47msssVFAwzPHoYVtHavGDWri6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e2c7d164-4a9f-da0b-921b-25a74c6a033d@glasgow.ac.uk>


It looks like an interesting proof of concept, but would be difficult to 
ring.

I wonder whether there is any useful structure within it - it's not 
obvious from the way it is set out in CompLib, but maybe there is 
something there.

It would be good to see a more structured composition, perhaps organised 
into blocks along the lines of the maximus particles compositions.

For example, a cyclic 8-part built out of blocks with dodging on four 
bells and hunting on the other four, that kind of thing.

Simon




From andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com  Wed Jan 19 20:40:00 2022
From: andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 21:40:00 +0100
Subject: [r-t] All the 4-runs
In-Reply-To: <59acc226b8john@jaharrison.me.uk>
References: <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF.ref@yahoo.co.uk>
 <03A2535B-DEE5-49AB-9975-3068785F6BFF@yahoo.co.uk>
 <59acc226b8john@jaharrison.me.uk>
Message-ID: <OF98BC1140.F6A47A55-ON802587CF.002F13EF-802587CF.0071868D@ibm.com>

> When I first met Original Major (as a method for ringing touches) Stan
> Scott who was keen on it said it 'should' have 6th place bobs but they 
rang
> it with 4th place bobs (hence they called it Easthampstead variation).
> 
> I wonder if there is some compositional advantage in using 4th place 
bobs
> rather than 6th place.  It's use here suggests there might be.
> John Harrison
The general rule for treble dominated major used to be 4ths place bobs
for 2nds place method, and 6ths place bobs for 8ths place method
except extending lead methods like Kent or Bristol where a 4ths place
bob lets more of the back bells repeat a lead.

The possible reason for that is so that bobs only affect 3 bells
rather than 5.

I think Graham has now gone for a convention of near calls for all
treble dominated major including methods such as Double Norwich
Court Bob Major even though there are 943 compositions with far 
calls and 79 with near (all single method compositions).

On CompLib principles seem to have 'far' as the default.

From https://complib.org/help#help-h-310
Near:
Major: Bob -=14, Single s=1234, Double d=123456, BobSingle b=1456, BigBob 
x=16
Far:
Major: Bob -=16, Single s=1678, Double d=145678, BobSingle b=1456, BigBob 
x=14

'Double' and 'BobSingle' are the less usual calls.
CompLib also offers 'BigSingle' and 'Extreme' as options.

4ths place bobs in Original Major do make 5 bells repeat, but
this composition has:

Types of call
4
   1234 LE Single (s)
365
   14 LE Bob (?)
561
   1456 LE Bob single (b)
263
   16 LE Big bob (x)
833

so has more 6ths place bobs than 4ths. Changing the default calls to
far would mean explicitly defining single as '1234', or possibly
defining it as a 'BigSingle' with '1234', but would mean 833 far
6ths place bobs and 561 'BigBobs' under the far convention.

Perhaps it is possible to get a similar peal with:
Types of call
4
   1678 LE Single (s)
   16 LE Bob (?)
   1456 LE Bob single (b)
   14 LE Big bob (x)

By symmetry you could just transform the existing 5000 to use
the following calls
   5678 LE Single (s)
   58 LE Bob (?)
   3458 LE Bob single (b)
   38 LE Big bob (x)

--
Andrew Johnson
Twyford

















Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 
741598. 
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU

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