[Bell Historians] Mancroft tenor (was unusual clock chimes) [1 Attachment]

Mon Nov 9 18:44:48 GMT 2009

My thanks to Andrew for taking the time to dig out the tuning book entry for
Mancroft. This looks like cast-iron evidence to me, while the two Davids
have seen the marks of machine-tuning on the bell. The entry in the job
book, which strongly implies that NONE of the bells were tuned, is a little
bit strange. Possibly the tenor was tuned as an afterthought and nobody
updated the job book entry.

>From what I can tell of the tuning book format, the top row of figures was
the ideal result that the tuner was aiming for - i.e. true-harmonic (fat
chance with an 1814 Mears bell!). The row underneath "as received" are the
figures before any tuning was carried out, and the remaining rows are the
intermediate measurements. The bottom row are the finished figures, which
tally very closely with Bill Hibbert's measured figures of 136.5, 245, 304,
394, 502. The nominal was lowered from C -31 to B + 29, and the prime
adjusted from -55 cents to - 42, and the hum from +161 to +145.

Andrew Bull

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From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew Higson
Sent: 09 November 2009 12:37
To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] Mancroft tenor (was unusual clock chimes) [1
Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Andrew Higson included below] 

If this attachment works - DB help if it doesn't - I offer it as evidence
for the defence!

Regards

Andrew Higson

John Taylor & Co.

The Bellfoundry

Freehold Street

Loughborough

LE11 1AR

Telephone: 01509 212241 Fax: 01509 263305 Registered in England No. 7032766

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From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David Cawley
Sent: 09 November 2009 12:15
To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Mancroft tenor (was unusual clock chimes)

Unfortunately a great many of my papers are presently atill unpacked
following the move from Leicester to Margate. However, I have seen and
copied certain of the correspondence re Mancroft tenor at Loughborough and
am able to recollect what I read. The whole restoration was quite an
involved case, and involved a Consistory Court (which was largely about the
bell frame; Taylors were prepared to strengthen the old one if required to
do so, but in the end the Chancellor allowed a new frame). So far as the
tenor was concerned it was considerably lighter than its "given" weight of
43-something. JT&Co stated that ideally the bell should be recast, but
settled for tuning it; not extensively but with eminently satisfactory
results. When the builders have finished with my study, no doubt I would be
able to produce the "documentary evidence" Andrew requires. Meanwhile there
is evidence still to be seen in the bell itself.

DLC

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Andrew Bull <mailto:a_m_bull at WmZyHOBl-EN4DX6FGR6p80dUmWiLN8uChI-Y0qNRtBGR6YXbLgMox22s87KBaUVaO4CX5eCVmIi2UahmEdK8.yahoo.invalid>  

To: bellhistorians@ <mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:16 PM

Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] Mancroft tenor (was unusual clock chimes)

I've heard it said a few times that Mancroft tenor was tuned when the bells
underwent a full restoration by Taylors in 1925. I have examined the job
book entry at Loughborough for the job, and on that evidence it seems that
NONE of the bells were tuned. Those on the list who have examined Taylors'
job books first-hand will be familiar with the format; for each job is given
the weights as received, the wheel diameters, estimated weights of any new
bells, weights "as dispatched", and then underneath the tuning figures,
generally before and after tuning. For the Mancroft entry, the table for the
tuning figures has been set out, but no figures entered in the table.
Instead, underneath is written "not altered". I have always taken this
phrase to indicate that no tuning was carried out on any of the bells.

I have not checked in the tuning books for the Mancroft job, but the entry
in the job book seems fairly conclusive. Does anyone have documentary
evidence that the tenor WAS tuned in 1925?

I did have a ring at Mancroft a couple of years ago, expecting to hate them,
but came away rather liking them. Perhaps I was just taken in by the history
of the place? But Bill Hibbert told me - in terms I am still studying! -
that there are definite reasons why I may have liked them.

Andrew Bull

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From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Richard Offen
Sent: 06 November 2009 03:58
To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Unusual clock chimes

Although not strictly a clock chime, the very plaintive sound of Norwich
Cathedral bells being chimed automatically should be a must for the
recording!

I agree with you about the front 11 at Mancroft.   Dunstan was pretty near
being a 'Simpson' bell before tuning and is near perfect (even upper
partials in tune) after.

Richard

On Fri Nov 6 5:18 , 'David Cawley' sent:

At Glandford, Norfolk, there is a very good twelve-bell chime (Taylors 1900,
11-1-17 in G) complete with chiming clock and an impressive barrell which
plays every three hours; there is a weekly selection of tunes. You can see
it in action at the end of the John Betjeman film A Passion for Churches. A
video is still advertised for sale on the Whitechapel website.

Re Richard's email below: the clock bells, now hanging above Great Dunstan
are all the more interesting as they are nos 4-8 of the "characterful" old
twelve which preceded the present ring in the SW tower. On GD's place among
good-sounding 18th-century bells: one has to remember that the bell is by no
means as cast - indeed some 6-cwt lighter after the very successful tuning
had been completed. I would put my money on the Lester & Pack front 11 at
Mancroft, never tuned by anyone after being supplied to the church. When
Taylors rehung them in 1925 they neither suggested nor undertook any tuning
to these bells, only to the T Mears II tenor.

DLC

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