[Bell Historians] Fw: Bell Identification, Dalton le Dale, St. Andrew

Fri Nov 10 11:02:33 GMT 2017

The bell is definitely NOT by Edward Seller of Benniworth, Lincolnshire. The moulding wires above and below the inscription are not smooth & even which means its not part of the Smith empire, besides which it is just too early for Abraham Smith.

So who is left as possible founders?

Known workers in the area include:

Robert Oldfield of Preston who worked at Durham & Newcastle in 1638, his last known dates. His lettering is different to the photo (on the only bell I have seen of his)

The mysterious IR whose working dates are from 1631 to the 1660’s but the lettering on this bell is different to that on Thornaby on Tees 2nd, also of 1631

John Conyers of New Malton working 1613-1634, but he uses a different style of lettering.

So who else is left?

At Wycliffe there is a bell with the name Raphe Porter of 1607. Nothing else is known of him, but from a rather poor rubbing I have which shows his lettering to be small Roman capitals, though with significant differences in some of the letters so I am inclined to discount him. Also the moulding wires are neatly formed.

Thus we find ourselves with no known candidate for the founder. He may have been an itinerant.

George

From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: 08 November 2017 18:36
To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com
Cc: jeanhamilton at btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Fw: Bell Identification, Dalton le Dale, St. Andrew

As for the other initials, they could well belong to the churchwardens. If the churchwardens' account books don't survive for this period, try seeing if the parish registers have been signed, or otherwise bear the scribe's or clerk's name. Also research the families of people appearing in the registers with the same initials - it could be that local worthies paid for the bells.

I suppose it's unlikely, but could the M of MC and the W of CW be the same character, one of them accidentally cast upside down, and one of the pairs of initials similarly reversed? More likely though that one of the wardens was replaced.

Lawrence Greenall, Waltham Abbey Historical Society.

On 08/11/2017 16:15, 'Peter Rivet' peter at plrivet.plus.com [Bellhistorians] wrote:

I’ve had a quick look at Dennis Greenwood’s booklet on Post Reformation Bellfounders of York (1994), which contains a lot of useful relevant information.  

William Seller, the first of the Seller family of founders, is reckoned to have worked c. 1635-1687.  They generally seem to have spelt the name Seller rather than Sellars.  It’s just possible that this is by him.  His early bells are generally found in Lincolnshire, which suggests that during the mid seventeenth century he was working there rather than York.  However there’s no reason why a bell from there shouldn’t have found its way to County Durham, especially if it came by sea.

Dennis Greenwood comments that a noticeable feature of the work of the 17th/18th century York founders – the Smiths, the Sellers and the Daltons – is that they arranged their moulding wires (raised semicircular bands around the bell) in groups of three.  This may be a useful clue.  

Peter Rivet

Lancaster

From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 2:11 PM
To: Bell Historians  <mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com> <bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Bell Historians] Fw: Bell Identification, Dalton le Dale, St.Andrew [4 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Carl S Zimmerman included below] 

The attached inquiry is far outside my range of expertise.  I hope that a few of you might feel qualified to reply to the inquirer.

Carl Scott Zimmerman 
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA -
 - 19th c. home of at least 36 bell founders or resellers 
Tel. +1(314)821-8437 
Webmaster for www.TowerBells.org
 * Avocation: tower bells
 * Recreation: handbells
 * Mission: church bells

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: JEAN HAMILTON <jeanhamilton at btinternet.com>
To: csz_stl at swbell.net 
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:50 AM
Subject: Bell Identification

Hello

I am a member of Dalton le Dale History Society (dalton-le-dalehistorysociety.org ) Within our village we are lucky to have a 12th Century church St. Andrews.

Recent work on the roof allowed access to the bell cote and photographs to be taken of the bells. We are subsequently interested in researching their history and would be grateful for any assistance you can provide.

The first reference to bells in St. Andrews church was in the inventory ordered by the Bishop in 1553: this included two bells in the steeple, one hand bell and one sacring bell. The next reference can be seen within a plaque on the south wall of the nave with the date 1631 and four sets of initials. Some of this information is repeated on the tenor bell. The raised letters are MC, ED, WS, and IT, together with the date 1631.The initials on the plaque are CW, ED, WS and IT. There is therefore and anomaly between MC and CW. We suspect the initials WS may relate to William Sellars of York who made bells around 17th century. The initials MC could relate to the vicar of the church between 1621 and 1662 i.e. Matthew Cooper. The national bell register identifies the second bell as 14th century but does not bear any identifying features.

I have attached photographs.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this.

Regards

Jean Hamilton

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