[r-t] Grandsire, et al.

edward martin edward.w.martin at gmail.com
Mon Apr 17 17:32:48 UTC 2006

On 4/17/06, Robin Woolley <robin at robinw.org.uk > wrote:
> However, the rules on extension  by one stage are still fundamentally
> based
> upon 'what has been done in the past'. It goes back to 1788 when Single
> Oxford Minor was rung to triples by adding a hunt bell. Since then, as I
> mentioned previously, D. Oxford, Hereward, St. Clement's, S. & D. Court,
> London & College have all been rung to triples by adding a hunt bell, the
> last being Hereward in 1935.

Just to agree with Robin
In fact Shipway in his great tome is probably responsible for this way of
thinking in that he catagorised methods into some 12 'Systems' wherein a
'systen' was in fact a principle to be applied (for the most part) on any
number of bells from 6 on up.

System 1 = Bob Ringing, including Plain (or what he calls Single), Reverse
and Double on all numbers of bells from 4 to 12 inclusive.
System 2 = Place Ringing (apparently his own idea)
System 3 = Grandsire Ringing, including Single, Reverse & Double again on
all numbers from 4 – 12. (the extra hunt bell occurs in every one except
Grandsire Minimus which has PN = 34.14.x 14 x 14 34 14 for LH 1342)
System 4 = Union Ringing, Single Reverse and Double on only 7 9 & 11 bells
System 5 = Oxford Bob Ringing (S,R & D) on 6 – 12
System 6 = Court Bob Ringing (S,R & D) on 6 – 12
System 7 = London Court Bob Ringing (S,R & D) on 6 – 12
System 8 = Norwich Court Bob Ringing (S,R & D) on 6 – 12
System 9  = Stedman's Slow Course
System 10 = Treble Bob
System 11 = Stedman
System 12 = Shipway
Thus his Systems 1 & 3 established the reasoning that  Grandsire was NOT an
extension of PB by adding an extra hunt bell
However, his systems 5,6,7 & 8 were based on the Minor, adding extra hunt
bells for odd numbers.
It was comparatively early days for system 10 which tried to accomodate all
TB methods whether (by todays reckoning) T.B proper, Delight or Surprise
Obviously as the 19th century progressed and the C.C. came into being a more
detailed classification was seen to be necvessary as far as Shipway';s
System 10 was concerned. But the concept behind his systems 1 & 3 persisted
until some Methods Committee decided that his systems 5,6,7 & 8 needed to be
divided into even bell methods and odd bell (so-called Twin Hunt methods).
>From here-on in if one is to be consistent.there is obviously a conflict
twixt Systems 1 & 3 !!!

Peter asked :
(was pb 6 rung before or after pb 5 does anyone know?).
What we now call Bob Minimus is in Tintinnalogia p61,
ditto Bob Doubles p.86,(actually called 'Old Doubles') but with a 'bob' or
to be accurate 'an extream" = places in 1-2-3  instead of our bob = places
in 1-4-5`
Grandsire Doubles appeares on p 95.. I mention this because a form of what
we would recognise as = PB6 is on p107, where we are told (to paraphrase)
that this is Plain Hunt on 6 with the leads of Old Doubles applied to the
back 5  at every lead of the Treble. thus giving us a 720 of 'Bob Minor' but
with different types of single used.
The standard 720 of PB6 is revealed on p114 where it is called 'Grandsire
Boib' because (as we are told), instead of applying OIld Doubles, to the
treble's leads, we now have Reverse Grandsire Doubles applied instead. The
end result is a 720 with only two singles.
So I think the answer is still rather complicated in that first we had a
form of Bob Doubles, then Grandsire Doubles then a form of Bob Minor then
Bob Minor as we now know it

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://bellringers.net/pipermail/ringing-theory/attachments/20060417/aabed376/attachment-0004.html>

More information about the ringing-theory mailing list