[r-t] ringing-theory Digest, Vol 186, Issue 5

[John David]

If "New Grandsire" means "Retrograde Grandsire" then perhaps that could be the standard, and Polebrook (I lost a peal there once) should become New Cotterstock ( or vice versa, recognising that [ as with compositions]they are both the same method)?

John David

Guernsey

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Subject: ringing-theory Digest, Vol 186, Issue 5

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Today's Topics:

   1. Terminology question (Joe Norton)
   2. Re: Terminology question (Andrew Johnson)
   3. Re: Terminology question (Joe Norton)


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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:39:46 +0100
From: Joe Norton <super.joey.norton at gmail.com>
To: ringing-theory at bellringers.org
Subject: [r-t] Terminology question
Message-ID:
        <CAMGUTJJHF7hSTVTG-Ozjv0ybv7GMC_=J9zxgOJ5VKbz0VhvX+Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...

Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set of
changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.

If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block produced
is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.

First question:
If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change last
etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not called
reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as above.

Second question:
In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any way? This
does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast majority of common
methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook Bob Doubles
(5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles
(5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if there have
been any naming rules since then.

Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!

Joe.
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:09:51 +0100
From: Andrew Johnson <andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com>
To: ringing-theory at bellringers.org
Subject: Re: [r-t] Terminology question
Message-ID:
        <OF5ED6E67B.DD79A92F-ON802585CE.006DC72B-802585CE.006EC42C at notes.na.collabserv.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

> From: Joe Norton
> I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...
>
> Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set
> of changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.
>
> If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block
> produced is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.
>
> First question:
> If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change
> last etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not
> called reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as
above.
>
> Second question:
> In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any
> way? This does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast
> majority of common methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook
> Bob Doubles (5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles
> (5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if
> there have been any naming rules since then.
>
> Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!
>
> Joe._____
See Martin Bright's paper about symmetries:
http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf
using 'vertical reflection' and
https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry
using 'read backwards'.

Sometimes 'reverse' is used to mean going backwards, but perhaps for
compositions where it is clear that the method is staying the same,
but the order of the calls is reversed.

Perhaps 'retrograde' could also be considered as a term.

Andrew Johnson







Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number
741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:42:56 +0100
From: Joe Norton <super.joey.norton at gmail.com>
To: ringing-theory at bellringers.org
Subject: Re: [r-t] Terminology question
Message-ID:
        <CAMGUTJK1CEQEZXFVgugL01TjPxFymm9F9ECUznirhJeq=M6Kgg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Ah ha! Thank you, very useful.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:11, Andrew Johnson <andrew_johnson at uk.ibm.com>
wrote:

> > From: Joe Norton
> > I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...
> >
> > Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set
> > of changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.
> >
> > If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block
> > produced is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.
> >
> > First question:
> > If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change
> > last etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not
> > called reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as
> above.
> >
> > Second question:
> > In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any
> > way? This does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast
> > majority of common methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook
> > Bob Doubles (5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles
> > (5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if
> > there have been any naming rules since then.
> >
> > Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!
> >
> > Joe._____
> See Martin Bright's paper about symmetries:
> http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf
> using 'vertical reflection' and
>
> https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry
> using 'read backwards'.
>
> Sometimes 'reverse' is used to mean going backwards, but perhaps for
> compositions where it is clear that the method is staying the same,
> but the order of the calls is reversed.
>
> Perhaps 'retrograde' could also be considered as a term.
>
> Andrew Johnson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Unless stated otherwise above:
> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number
> 741598.
> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ringing-theory mailing list
> ringing-theory at bellringers.org
> https://bellringers.org/listinfo/ringing-theory
>
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