[Bell Historians] GSM Cambridge and stretch tuning

[Sam Austin]

I'll be brave and say that I like stretch tuning.

When I worked at Symphony Hall, B'ham, the violins always tuned sharp. This
was to ensure a brighter and more exciting sound. The same goes for choirs,
I always get my sopranos to sing sharper for a clearer and more successful
blend.
Pier Head bells sound stretched to me (I may be wrong), the trebles are
crystal clear amongst the back bells and I like them, they 'fizz' and
'bubble' when ringing the 12.  2 and 9 do beat with each other when ringing
the middle 8 but apart from that there seems to be no problem.

Until now I was unaware that Bill Hibbert's thesis was available online, I
shall read with interest, especially as I have to submit my PhD proposal
soon.

Aye

Sam

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Richard Offen <richard.offen at -IorIGx9b5xJTHympTPGkPVSeI1t4OPz-uy2lNuKwFSUHpTG5ay3cDbDQcyCfU2D6sYEEas6YDF6vIA6vsSNLuoiyg.yahoo.invalid>wrote:

>   Andrew is right, I am listening to these rings more as a musician, with
> a
> (he says modestly!) pretty accurate ear, than a bell tuner.
>
> Our previous organist at St George's Cathedral couldn't stand the ring
> because, to him, they were so dreadfully out of tune, with the
> progressively
> sharper intervals between the bells from the tenor and seventh up used to
> drive him mad. He reckoned the best year of his life at St George's was
> the one when were weren't able to ring because of structural repairs to the
> tower!
>
> Like Andrew, I am not aware of any of the modern rings of twelve by both
> founders, or indeed the pre-stretch Taylor ones having flat sounding
> trebles, or even particularly dull ones.
>
> It is all extremely subjective, and I will acknowledge that my time in the
> tuning shop (very many years ago now) trained my ear to hear things that
> others don't notice, often to the point of spoiling my enjoyment of rings
> that others rave about - but a lot of these have stretched treble ..oops,
> sorry, we're back where we started!
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
> bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of Andrew Higson
> Sent: Monday, 8 December 2008 8:12 PM
> To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>
>  Subject: RE: [Bell Historians] GSM Cambridge and stretch tuning
>
> I think Richard will be listening and grinding as a musician.
>
> I'm worried that I'm hearing what Richard hears and not what Bill's
> thesis tells me I ought to hear. Bill - I confess that I've not read
> your thesis yet - how much is the flattening of the trebles effect
> subjective and likely to different interpretation with different ears?
> I'm not aware that any of the tens and twelves I personally have tuned
> have trebles that sound flat to the extent that criticism has abounded.
>
> Andrew Higson
>
> Taylors Eayre and Smith Ltd
>
> The Bellfoundry
>
> Freehold Street
>
> Loughborough
>
> LE11 1AR
>
> Telephone: 01509 212241 Fax: 01509 263305 Registered in England No.
> 1352309
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbert
> Sent: 08 December 2008 10:54
> To: bellhistorians at yahoogroups.com <bellhistorians%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Bell Historians] GSM Cambridge and stretch tuning
>
> RO:
> > When Taylors recast the trebles and restored [GSM] in 1952 they made
> them one of their horrible 'stretched' peals
>
> In the debate about stretch tuning, there are no right answers, only
> different wrong ones and the need for compromise! GSM is one of the
> peals that I investigated in my PhD (page 219, for anyone who has
> downloaded a copy) and in fact the treble tuning is close to that
> needed to compensate exactly for the flattening of the strike note due
> to the treble profiles. This is pretty remarkable given that Paul
> Taylor (I assume it was he) had no theoretical understanding of the
> need for stretch, only the evidence of his ears.
>
> Richard, you are listening to these bells as a bellfounder, not as a
> man-in-the-street. Of course the nominals are sharp - but the strike
> notes are flat. Stretch tuning is no longer fashionable, due to the
> discordance of various partials in true-harmonic peals heard in the
> tower. It was certainly taken to extreme in peals like GSM. However,
> the insistence on exact tuning of nominals, because they are easy to
> measure, means the rest of us have to suffer flat / dull trebles in
> higher numbers. Because it is so hard to measure what we hear, the
> argument is lost as soon as the tuning forks come out. That doesn't
> mean that what we hear isn't real!
>
> The two sides of the argument are neatly summarised by two comments on
> a Youtube video of the New York 12 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?
> <http://uk.youtube.com/watch?>
> v=0w6SQdrFSUg)
> > is the top bell out of tune?
> > no it isn't
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill H
>
> PS insert smilies to taste.
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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>
> 
>
           
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