[Bell Historians] Kemberton

Sun May 15 18:54:09 BST 2022

The use of A# is only nonsense if you are under the illusion that there are only twelve notes per octave. This has really come about because of keyboard instruments which, with few exceptions, are 12-notes per octave instruments. Violins, Violas, Cellos, and trombones however have unlimited fundamentals. When the possibility of playing in all 24 keys was being explored, the solution was to build 19-notes per octave instruments. The photo shows Vincentino's 2-manual cembalo, built in the late 16th century (it was expense which resulted in most instruments being provided with only 12 notes per octave). This  instrumentis tuned in extended meantone with separate sharps and flats, enabling all 24 keys to be played with good intonation. Woodwind instruments used to be provided with an additional valve, enabling extended meantone. The use of separate sharps and flats was understood and used  (notably in string quartets) by composers such as Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

When Online Dove was established, there was a move to standardize pitch, regardless of the original tuners pitch standard. Some of the rings tuned by Whitechapel to old concert pitch (A=454, A#-45 cents) were subject to note name changes. I was opposed to this, but only reacted when Wedmore were changed from C to D flat which to me was very clearly incorrect. At C#-45, a change to C sharp might have been just about acceptable. As a result, Ben Kipling and myself decided to use note names which described the pitch standard, but with the correct note names. Taylors had supplied rings tuned in G sharp, but incorrectly named the notes as, G#, A#, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#. This implies the semitones are minor.
 If a ring is tuned to C sharp but sharp of standard pitch, it is therefore D flat, and C sharp if flat of pitch (minus cents) The Swan Tower, Perth therefore are D flat, not C sharp. I marked the ANZAC bell as G flat +4 cents.

My preference would be for Online Dove to retain the note names provided by the original tuner, and that should also apply today, but stating the pitch standard used. Whilst various pitch standards have been employed, Gillett & Johnston settled on A=435, Taylors on C=259, and Whitechapel on A=439, but applying different pitch standards to old rings for convenience, including A=454. All three companies used various pitches before adopting their own standards. A=435 was standard American pitch. Paul Taylor grumbled to Douglas Hughes when A=440 was adopted because he knew his own company's pitch standard note pitches without having to look them up!

I would endorse AWRW's remarks on equal temperament resulting in a loss of key colour, with only neutral grey being available. Fortunately, there are now many recordings available of music recorded on instruments tuned in a variety of meantone, modified meantone and well temperaments. The latter access all 24 keys, but with a subtle range of key colours, from a smooth and stately C major, to a bright and slightly sizzly F sharp major.

NSDT

________________________________
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> on behalf of Richard Offen <richard.offen at iinet.net.au>
Sent: 15 May 2022 14:17
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

You might find this of interest Andrew:

https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wam.hr%2Fsadrzaj%2Fus%2FCavanagh_440Hz.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Al%2F7cyQHc2BA9GDc0byMhEf6xI4IUhqcXgCFcSC1kL8%3D&reserved=0>

[cid:image001.png at 01D40F8F.50BED290]

From: Bell-historians [mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk] On Behalf Of Andrew Wilby
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 8:42 PM
To: Bell Historians Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

Are we overlooking the fact that A440 has only been the International standard since 1953?

Before that we used a variety including A435, the French A432 etc. That is why York etc were described as B flat. It was the pitch of the time.

Nobody that I have come across can explain why A440 was settled on?

 A432 has a greater resonance with music as it divides by 8 and seems to occur naturally vv organ pipes of 8ft, 16ft, 32 and 64ft etc. Is there a rationale here?

Perhaps someone might delve into the history of pitch as related to bells.? Also to remember that not all rings are equal tempered and that might affect the designation of an individual bell.

I'm not defending Kemberton A# by the way. I shall enquire!

AWRW

On Sun, 15 May 2022, 12:18 Richard Offen, <richard.offen at iinet.net.au<mailto:richard.offen at iinet.net.au>> wrote:

PS. I quite understand it will be a gargantuan task to go through the whole database to effect such changes and can certainly see why that is not a priority.

Arguments over note names aside, I still think the on-line Dove is a wonderful facility and thank all those who work so hard to keep it up to date.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians [mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>] On Behalf Of Richard Offen
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:14 PM
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

It may not be high on the priority list, but surely new additions, such as Kemberton, which are so obviously in B-flat could have some common musical sense applied to them!

R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians [mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>] On Behalf Of Dickon Love
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:09 PM
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

My good friend RCO has asked this question before, and the answer is the same.

The description of the key of a ring remains a work in progress because ultimately it boils down to individual preference, and we have seen a diversity of preferences already in this thread. The same argument goes for preferences in (historic) counties and lieutenancy areas. In BellBoard, the user can set a preference, and in due course we hope we can do the same for Dove with respect to key signatures.

This will not only apply to which side of the divide the key note is (the tenor), but also whether the key note should be used in defining the scale in the first place, or even some other average applied over all the notes of the scale, not just the tenor. This latter calculation would itself be dependent on which temperament you want to apply the calculations to.

At the moment it is not particularly high on the list of priorities when we are still embedding in details of frames, hence there hasn't been a review of all sets of bells. So if A# offends you, please know that Bb is not considered incorrect, or indeed A or B if the tenor is particularly flat or sharp.

DrL

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> On Behalf Of Richard Offen
Sent: 14 May 2022 08:25
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Subject: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

Could I ask why the new ring of six for Kemberton, Shropshire (soon to be eight) are being shown on the online Dove website as being in the key of A#?

If I remember my music theory correctly, A# Major is not in the circle of fifths as it’s structure, with three double sharps, is considered too complicated for practical use.

The tenor at Kemberton, according to the nominal frequency given on the Dove page is 11 cents flat of B-flat, so why not show the ring in that commonly used key? To add insult to injury, one of the bells is shown as being in E-flat, which makes even more of a nonsense of it all!

Rings of bells are musical instruments and therefore, in my opinion, should conform to the tried and tested conventions of musical notation.

Richard

Sent from Richard Offen's iPad

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0>

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mziP8wNbDmu6R%2Fkveo0qLmlsWtElM9cCW36MIS91jh4%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Bell-historians mailing list
Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk<mailto:Bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
https://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/listinfo/bell-historians<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ringingworld.co.uk%2Flistinfo%2Fbell-historians&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b56708da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtwmKAHRhQp1M1NVNzJbFamG%2BTDzBz6R5qHuBdk9ZqE%3D&reserved=0>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/pipermail/bell-historians/attachments/20220515/b3e4e692/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 19616 bytes
Desc: image001.png
URL: <http://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/pipermail/bell-historians/attachments/20220515/b3e4e692/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2-manual 19-note virginal.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 12827 bytes
Desc: 2-manual 19-note virginal.jpg
URL: <http://lists.ringingworld.co.uk/pipermail/bell-historians/attachments/20220515/b3e4e692/attachment-0001.jpg>