[Bell Historians] Kemberton

Mon May 16 11:56:30 BST 2022

For those wishing to know even more I would suggest taking a look at;
Intervals, Scales and Temperaments by LL S  Lloyd and Hugh Boyle, published
Macdonald and Jane's, London (Sorry I don't have an ISBN).

I think the point has already been made that those who understand and wish
to know about these matters would be able to deduce what they need to know
perfectly well from the current Dove notation / decision, imperfect though
it is (and will always be whatever decision is made). For others, (probably
the majority) they won't care!

Interestingly, the Korg Chromatic Tuner that I inherited from Stephen Ivin
is duel-marked with A# / Bb (and also D#/Eb and G#/Ab). Steve used these
same notations in his notebooks. (Of course this all pre-dates currently
available software such as Wavanal, Audacity, Chord etc). 

Steve

Steve Stanford

 <mailto:steve.h.stanford at gmail.com> steve.h.stanford at gmail.com

Home/Office Tel: +44 (0) 1234 856778

Mobile Tel: +44 (0) 7742 871724

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> On
Behalf Of Nigel Taylor
Sent: 15 May 2022 18:54
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
<bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

The use of A# is only nonsense if you are under the illusion that there are
only twelve notes per octave. This has really come about because of keyboard
instruments which, with few exceptions, are 12-notes per octave instruments.
Violins, Violas, Cellos, and trombones however have unlimited fundamentals.
When the possibility of playing in all 24 keys was being explored, the
solution was to build 19-notes per octave instruments. The photo shows
Vincentino's 2-manual cembalo, built in the late 16th century (it was
expense which resulted in most instruments being provided with only 12 notes
per octave). This  instrumentis tuned in extended meantone with separate
sharps and flats, enabling all 24 keys to be played with good intonation.
Woodwind instruments used to be provided with an additional valve, enabling
extended meantone. The use of separate sharps and flats was understood and
used  (notably in string quartets) by composers such as Haydn, Mozart and
Beethoven.

When Online Dove was established, there was a move to standardize pitch,
regardless of the original tuners pitch standard. Some of the rings tuned by
Whitechapel to old concert pitch (A=454, A#-45 cents) were subject to note
name changes. I was opposed to this, but only reacted when Wedmore were
changed from C to D flat which to me was very clearly incorrect. At C#-45, a
change to C sharp might have been just about acceptable. As a result, Ben
Kipling and myself decided to use note names which described the pitch
standard, but with the correct note names. Taylors had supplied rings tuned
in G sharp, but incorrectly named the notes as, G#, A#, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#.
This implies the semitones are minor.

 If a ring is tuned to C sharp but sharp of standard pitch, it is therefore
D flat, and C sharp if flat of pitch (minus cents) The Swan Tower, Perth
therefore are D flat, not C sharp. I marked the ANZAC bell as G flat +4
cents. 

My preference would be for Online Dove to retain the note names provided by
the original tuner, and that should also apply today, but stating the pitch
standard used. Whilst various pitch standards have been employed, Gillett &
Johnston settled on A=435, Taylors on C=259, and Whitechapel on A=439, but
applying different pitch standards to old rings for convenience, including
A=454. All three companies used various pitches before adopting their own
standards. A=435 was standard American pitch. Paul Taylor grumbled to
Douglas Hughes when A=440 was adopted because he knew his own company's
pitch standard note pitches without having to look them up!

I would endorse AWRW's remarks on equal temperament resulting in a loss of
key colour, with only neutral grey being available. Fortunately, there are
now many recordings available of music recorded on instruments tuned in a
variety of meantone, modified meantone and well temperaments. The latter
access all 24 keys, but with a subtle range of key colours, from a smooth
and stately C major, to a bright and slightly sizzly F sharp major. 

NSDT

  _____  

From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> > on behalf of
Richard Offen <richard.offen at iinet.net.au
<mailto:richard.offen at iinet.net.au> >
Sent: 15 May 2022 14:17
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List' <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> >
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton 

You might find this of interest Andrew:

https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wam.h
r%2Fsadrzaj%2Fus%2FCavanagh_440Hz.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7C251fa857340442f4b567
08da36756c69%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637882175220313463
%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWw
iLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Al%2F7cyQHc2BA9GDc0byMhEf6xI4IUhqcXgCF
cSC1kL8%3D&reserved=0> 

From: Bell-historians
[mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk] On Behalf Of
Andrew Wilby
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 8:42 PM
To: Bell Historians Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

Are we overlooking the fact that A440 has only been the International
standard since 1953?

Before that we used a variety including A435, the French A432 etc. That is
why York etc were described as B flat. It was the pitch of the time. 

Nobody that I have come across can explain why A440 was settled on?

 A432 has a greater resonance with music as it divides by 8 and seems to
occur naturally vv organ pipes of 8ft, 16ft, 32 and 64ft etc. Is there a
rationale here?

Perhaps someone might delve into the history of pitch as related to bells.?
Also to remember that not all rings are equal tempered and that might affect
the designation of an individual bell.

I'm not defending Kemberton A# by the way. I shall enquire!

AWRW

On Sun, 15 May 2022, 12:18 Richard Offen, <richard.offen at iinet.net.au
<mailto:richard.offen at iinet.net.au> > wrote:

PS. I quite understand it will be a gargantuan task to go through the whole
database to effect such changes and can certainly see why that is not a
priority.

Arguments over note names aside, I still think the on-line Dove is a
wonderful facility and thank all those who work so hard to keep it up to
date.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians
[mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> ] On Behalf Of
Richard Offen
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:14 PM
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

It may not be high on the priority list, but surely new additions, such as
Kemberton, which are so obviously in B-flat could have some common musical
sense applied to them!

R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians
[mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> ] On Behalf Of
Dickon Love
Sent: Sunday, 15 May 2022 5:09 PM
To: 'Bell Historians Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

My good friend RCO has asked this question before, and the answer is the
same.

The description of the key of a ring remains a work in progress because
ultimately it boils down to individual preference, and we have seen a
diversity of preferences already in this thread. The same argument goes for
preferences in (historic) counties and lieutenancy areas. In BellBoard, the
user can set a preference, and in due course we hope we can do the same for
Dove with respect to key signatures.

This will not only apply to which side of the divide the key note is (the
tenor), but also whether the key note should be used in defining the scale
in the first place, or even some other average applied over all the notes of
the scale, not just the tenor. This latter calculation would itself be
dependent on which temperament you want to apply the calculations to.

At the moment it is not particularly high on the list of priorities when we
are still embedding in details of frames, hence there hasn't been a review
of all sets of bells. So if A# offends you, please know that Bb is not
considered incorrect, or indeed A or B if the tenor is particularly flat or
sharp.

DrL

-----Original Message-----
From: Bell-historians <bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians-bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> > On Behalf Of
Richard Offen
Sent: 14 May 2022 08:25
To: bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk
<mailto:bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk> 
Subject: [Bell Historians] Kemberton

Could I ask why the new ring of six for Kemberton, Shropshire (soon to be
eight) are being shown on the online Dove website as being in the key of A#?

If I remember my music theory correctly, A# Major is not in the circle of
fifths as it's structure, with three double sharps, is considered too
complicated for practical use. 

The tenor at Kemberton, according to the nominal frequency given on the Dove
page is 11 cents flat of B-flat, so why not show the ring in that commonly
used key? To add insult to injury, one of the bells is shown as being in
E-flat, which makes even more of a nonsense of it all!

Rings of bells are musical instruments and therefore, in my opinion, should
conform to the tried and tested conventions of musical notation. 

Richard

Sent from Richard Offen's iPad

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