[Bell Historians] Gillett and Johnston records

Richard Smith richard at ex-parrot.com
Thu Mar 12 13:23:49 GMT 2026 

The drawings of St Mary le Bow that Neal forwarded from the Edinburgh 
Cathedral ringing room are very interesting.  They show the ringing room 
one level further up the tower than the modern ringing room, and also 
the bells a bit higher than they are today.  The louvres today are 
significantly above the level of the bells, and before the electrically 
operated sound control was installed in the last few years, you had to 
go up another short ladder from frame-side level to reach the walkway at 
the base of the louvres.  It looks like the pre-War bells were roughly 
level with that walkway.

What must have been the old ringing room – now a void - has only one 
window, looking south over the nave roof.  Old etchings of the church 
certainly suggest that no windows were bricked up when the church was 
rebuilt and strengthened after the war, and there's no evidence of that 
looking at the tower today.

The photo of the ringing room in 1933 that was printed in Mark Regan's 
Ringing World article (1996, p.1296) shows a ringing room that looks 
very similar to the modern one.  There's what looks like a door in the 
corner behind the treble, and a window, albeit with closed shutters, 
between 8 and 9  (This is a bit clearer if you look at a paper copy 
rather than the scans.)  In today's ringing room, the window between 8 
and 9 is the north-facing door on to the balcony overlooking Cheapside, 
and the door behind the treble leads to the staircase in the north-west 
corner of the tower, which continues up to the bell chamber and beyond.

The problem is, if the 1933 ringing room is the modern void with only a 
south-facing window, and that is what we see between 8 and 9 in the 
photograph, then the rope circle is rotated 180°, and the door behind 
the treble cannot be the door on to the staircase.  Clearly something is 
wrong.  Either the ringing room had already been dropped down to its 
modern level by the time the photo was taken – though I cannot see any 
indication of this in reports of the 1933 work – or the shutters between 
8 and 9 are not a window, or the door in the corner behind the treble 
does not go to the stairway.

It's easy to believe the shutters might have been closed on a 
south-facing window in order to take the photo, if it was taken on a 
sunny day, so I don't think we can read anything into the shutters being 
closed.  There is what looks like a bolt at the top of the shutters, so 
I don't think it's simply a piece of panelling that looks like shutters. 
  Possibly the window shutters are actually the doors to an Ellacombe 
apparatus.  I'm not aware that the church had one, but it wouldn't seem 
especially surprising.  Another possibility is that the door behind the 
treble is actually a ringers' toilet or urinal.  These were not 
uncommon, and would normally be found in the corner of a ringing room. 
But that's a guess too.

Does anyone have any further information on this?

RAS


On Thu 12/03/2026 12:46, Neal Dodge via Bell-historians wrote:
> 
> Attached is a picture of the drawing in the Edinburgh cathedral ringing 
> room. The plan third from the bottom on the right is the relevant one, 
> but limited frame details.
> 
> Many Thanks
> Neal Dodge
> 
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2026, 09:10 Michael A Williams, <michael at oldlight.co.uk 
> <mailto:michael at oldlight.co.uk>> wrote:
> 
>     There are tower plans as a set of blueprints, produced by G&J and
>     dating from 1933, in the ASCY Library. I've not studied them in any
>     great detail but I can look at them when I am next there to see if
>     they may be of interest.
> 
>     Michael
>     (ASCY Librarian)
> 
>     On Thu, 12 Mar 2026 at 06:57, Chris Pickford via Bell-historians
>     <bell-historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-
>     historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> wrote:
> 
>         The tuning books are at Croydon Library/Archives, along with
>         just a few other records (nothing very useful, to be honest).
>         These were in the custody of a successor company – Cope Allman –
>         until Alan Buswell persuaded them to deposit them at Croydon.
>         Alan has done sterling work with these records for many decades
>         now – and has a database with all the main details (weights,
>         diameters, tuning figures etc).____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         The order books and quite a lot of other clockmaking records –
>         job files, photographs – are with the current G&J clockmaking
>         firms. There is limited access by arrangement. I have used them
>         from time to time, but not for quite a while. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         I doubt, though, if the surviving records represent much more
>         than (say) 5% of what once existed – and the great bulk of a
>         once great company archive has almost certainly been lost____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         As I recall there’s a large scale drawing of Bow tower in the
>         ringing room at Edinburgh Cathedral with an inset drawing
>         showing the plan of the frame.____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         */Chris Pickford/*____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         *From:*Bell-historians <bell-historians-
>         bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-historians-
>         bounces at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>> *On Behalf Of *oliver Lee via
>         Bell-historians
>         *Sent:* 11 March 2026 23:14
>         *To:* 'Bell Historians' <bell-
>         historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk <mailto:bell-
>         historians at lists.ringingworld.co.uk>>
>         *Cc:* oliver Lee <oliverbellringer at outlook.com
>         <mailto:oliverbellringer at outlook.com>>
>         *Subject:* [Bell Historians] Gillett and Johnston records____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Recently I have taken an interest in the old pre war 12 at St
>         Mary Le Bow and as these where mostly recast by Gillett and
>         Johnston in 1933 if was wondering if any of their original
>         records survive?, I know that their tuning books are still in
>         Existence but I have never heard anyone say anything else about
>         their other records although I can only assume that they survive
>         in some form or another and I think I can remember my friend Kye
>         leaver saying that he had seen some records in the croydon
>         Library that included some frame plans!. I would be very
>         interested if anyone else can add to this ____
> 
>         Regards____
> 
>         Oliver lee____
> 
>         P/s does anyone happen to have a copy of the Old frame at Bow to
>         hand? I'm convinced that the modern frame is a carbon copy
>         replica of it!____
> 
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